RICO and disbanding factions

[pateuvasiliu]

6 minutes ago, eTaylor said:

There’s a difference between your character wanting to win, and you (as a player) wanting to win. 

Which is exactly why complaining about gang injuctions is moronic. It's part of the investigative job.

[Wasloos]

Major illegal factions basically have nothing to fear right now. The only ways I see a faction get shut down is because of OOC conflict, lack of interest or (rarely) a faction coming to a chosen stop. Not once was a faction shut down because too many people went to prison or whatever (If you don't count really small unofficial groups).

 

A RICO system would essentially give the criminals a reason to not go cowboy throughout LS and actually have them do stuff underground. The absolute disregard for consequences is something I've seen way too many times within large factions, where an arrest basically just led to a change in leadership which essentially changed absolutely nothing, nor did it cripple their business.

 

All in all, small factions would be too insignificant to get RICO'd anyways, so this basically just concerns well established and wide reaching factions. 

 

Keeping all that in mind and doing a few adjustments to the bug/tracker/wire then no one should complain.

[DLimit]

1 hour ago, Wasloos said:

Major illegal factions basically have nothing to fear right now. The only ways I see a faction get shut down is because of OOC conflict, lack of interest or (rarely) a faction coming to a chosen stop. Not once was a faction shut down because too many people went to prison or whatever (If you don't count really small unofficial groups).

 

A RICO system would essentially give the criminals a reason to not go cowboy throughout LS and actually have them do stuff underground. The absolute disregard for consequences is something I've seen way too many times within large factions, where an arrest basically just led to a change in leadership which essentially changed absolutely nothing, nor did it cripple their business.

 

All in all, small factions would be too insignificant to get RICO'd anyways, so this basically just concerns well established and wide reaching factions. 

 

Keeping all that in mind and doing a few adjustments to the bug/tracker/wire then no one should complain.

"where an arrest basically just led to a change in leadership which essentially changed absolutely nothing, nor did it cripple their business."

That's how much OCGs and gangs still function in society, though. I remember reading F.B.I. and C.I.A. files claiming that one must arrest the top five in-command to truthfully harm any of these criminal organizations, to the extent that it destabilizes them. Certain orgs have ways to counter against this, as-well,

Usually, it leads to a weaker and disorganized member claiming membership, causing the org to be dismantled, internally, if they manage to arrest all high-ranking members in a short period of time.

[GamerX]

On 1/27/2022 at 10:59 AM, DLimit said:

^ This. 100%

I want RICOs on this server with THIS in mind.

 

Establish Federal Gov RP? Make a contract ICly to maintain jurisdiction between state and federal law. For example if the crime supersedes states law into a federal level. That's when the Federal Government should step in, if you catch my drift?

Edited January 29, 2022 by GamerX

[Trupiano]

I think a lot of you guys are getting tied up in the details. We don’t need to introduce some form of federal law enforcement or figure out a bridge between state and federal law for RICO. We can just suspend our disbelief and have it run through state level and it works fine.

 

The real issue with RICO’s (and DB investigations) as a whole is there aren’t clearly defined OOC guidelines for what flys and what doesn’t. Leading to investigation that are one step forward, two steps back. You end up with a detective spending 2+ weeks doing investigation work only for 95% of that work to be voided once the case goes to court.

 

IFM/LFM need to sit down and work out clear and understanding guidelines for what is acceptable and what is not for investigations. Nothing too restricting but at least set the groundwork so people aren’t shocked and discouraged when most of the work they put in is struck down by staff.

 

Staff also needs to decide and put in writing what warrants a RICO investigation and what the expected consequences of one are. I see a lot of people arguing against RICO cases saying that criminal factions shouldn’t be shut down by external sources. 
 

the issue with that is most often then not, the external source in this case was entirely brought on by a factions own actions. You can’t argue you shouldn’t be the target when your IG actions are drawing enough attention to warrant an investigation. 
 

This is all about clearing up the confusing around RICO investigations for both LEO’s and criminals. It should be as straight forward and understandable as CK applications so when it does happen, no one involved can complain and hopefully because everyone’s equally informed on the rules and regulation no admin has to step in and cherry pick which information is going to be allowed and which is going to be voided.

[Cypher99]

2 hours ago, Trupiano said:

I think a lot of you guys are getting tied up in the details. We don’t need to introduce some form of federal law enforcement or figure out a bridge between state and federal law for RICO. We can just suspend our disbelief and have it run through state level and it works fine.

 

The real issue with RICO’s (and DB investigations) as a whole is there aren’t clearly defined OOC guidelines for what flys and what doesn’t. Leading to investigation that are one step forward, two steps back. You end up with a detective spending 2+ weeks doing investigation work only for 95% of that work to be voided once the case goes to court.

 

IFM/LFM need to sit down and work out clear and understanding guidelines for what is acceptable and what is not for investigations. Nothing too restricting but at least set the groundwork so people aren’t shocked and discouraged when most of the work they put in is struck down by staff.

 

Staff also needs to decide and put in writing what warrants a RICO investigation and what the expected consequences of one are. I see a lot of people arguing against RICO cases saying that criminal factions shouldn’t be shut down by external sources. 
 

the issue with that is most often then not, the external source in this case was entirely brought on by a factions own actions. You can’t argue you shouldn’t be the target when your IG actions are drawing enough attention to warrant an investigation. 
 

This is all about clearing up the confusing around RICO investigations for both LEO’s and criminals. It should be as straight forward and understandable as CK applications so when it does happen, no one involved can complain and hopefully because everyone’s equally informed on the rules and regulation no admin has to step in and cherry pick which information is going to be allowed and which is going to be voided.

This is what FM and senior management said they were going to sit down and figure out when the RICO was initially denied, but it’s fallen on deaf ears. I have no doubt that a RICO act would be in-game if they would finally do exactly as you said. Not sure why it hasn’t been done, as it was stated so long ago already.
 

My guess is that IFM vehemently opposes anything that might put criminals at any sort of disadvantage. As if things being balanced helps the server. There should be a natural imbalance to push groups in both sides to get better, but for some reason that’s something that many people are against here 🤷‍♂️

Edited January 29, 2022 by Cypher99

[waterwings]

The problem with RICO and other big acts is as follows:
LEO Faction A+B request RICO law to help them better further their investigations

Factions A+B rely on government faction C to write that law
Government faction C writes the law, they pass it through their legislative gathering IC-
Admin sub-team D has to approve the law
Management member E has to approve the law
D and E ask subteam F for their input, who come with concerns.
D and E decline the law, saying F's concerns have to be addressed first.
D and E, instead of maintaining this proces by themselves, delegate this mostly to government faction C
Gov faction C is required to bring in A, B, D, E, F, and then about 50% of the gov faction leaders (G) who want to give their opinion on something, 50% of the illegal faction leaders (H) who want to give their opinions on something, some other admins (I) that want to give their opinion on the matter. Maybe some other server members are brought in (J)

And this is where it usually dies off. Or, alternatively, the law is written OOC. All the same entities (Or most of them) as listed before (A-J) are brought in. A lot of discussion is done, but nobody takes the lead for weeks. Eventually, someone does decide to take the lead. They + optionally a few other people put in most of the effort in writing whatever needs getting written. Once that is done, they push it to the rest of the group. It takes weeks/months to get everyone's opinions, figure a way around concerns people have. Then, it's presented to D. D spends some time reviewing it, coming with concerns, solving them. It's presented to E, who also spends time reviewing it, coming with concerns through C, solving them. Then, it's presented to F, who also spends time reviewing it, coming with concerns through C, solving them.

The problem with big acts like this is that the OOC politics included in them makes it extremely un-fun to spend time on writing them because:
1) There is a chance your work will never make it into the server;
2) There is a chance that you'll have to rework it, then a month later rework it again andsoforth;
3) All while you are writing this for A+B who requested it. You yourself will barely be able to take advantage of this act.
4) Between originally writing the act and it getting implemented, more than 6 months could easily pass.

And nobody usually considers the time the person who wrote the act spent on it.

[Trupiano]

32 minutes ago, Cypher99 said:

 

My guess is that IFM vehemently opposes anything that might put criminals at any sort of disadvantage. As if things being balanced helps the server. There should be a natural imbalance to push groups in both sides to get better, but for some reason that’s something that many people are against here 🤷‍♂️

it has literally nothing to do with this. This has nothing to do with giving either side advantages or disadvantages. RICO does exist IG and factions have been investigated with it. The reason it’s effectively shelved and hasn’t been used since is because it was a HUGE headache for staff, DB and the courts to deal with. There was no clear definitions on what was allowed and what wasn’t and because of issues with the bug script that weren’t caught until the case actually went to trial a majority of the case had to be voided.  
 

[Power]

9 hours ago, GamerX said:

 

Establish Federal Gov RP? Make a contract ICly to maintain jurisdiction between state and federal law. For example if the crime supersedes states law into a federal level. That's when the Federal Government should step in, if you catch my drift?

No I think staying State Gov and smaller alone works best, I've been apart this servers Legal system for a while now and been apart of other RP servers with Federal RP it just spreads things to thin and complicates the RP too much. You add Federal Law Enforcement you then need Federal Judges and a whole new structure around Federal agency. This server has a lot of people but not enough to fill up a federal Government. And it creates drama from the inevitable tension between state and federal factions.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Power

[Redke]

9 hours ago, GamerX said:

 

Establish Federal Gov RP? Make a contract ICly to maintain jurisdiction between state and federal law. For example if the crime supersedes states law into a federal level. That's when the Federal Government should step in, if you catch my drift?

 

SAGOV only has a handful of people who are interested anymore. Spreading the government RP thinner than it already is would obliterate it completely.