Neutral Characters and the crime rate: What's the point?

[Mahitto]

22 minutes ago, kaneki1king said:

OH GOD ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT ROBBERIES  

As @Fancy Toothpaste had pointed out, the reason why so many topics pop up on the same issues is because so many people are being affected by the same issue, over and over again.

 

If it wasn't an issue, I'm sure no one would be talking about it. There are no topics about characters illegally cutting down trees, no?

[LizziePup]

6 hours ago, Fancy Toothpaste said:

I've been playing the server since August of 2019; back when it took thirty minutes just to load into the game and the sync was so bad you'd be seeing cars teleporting down the street like some kind of glitch in the matrix. I remember that while loading into the server, we had to hold SHIFT+TAB to bring up the Steam overlay just so the game would finish loading. When I started playing there weren't even 300 people to rub together at peak hours, and there was usually only one business open at a time.

Yet, I enjoyed the experience of playing GTA:W in spite of these technical hiccups, because there was plenty of good, and interesting roleplay to go around. There was always the promise that those technical issues would be ironed out in the future; the promise that the server would age like fine wine, and get better with more time and development. I'm sorry to say that even with all the technical advancements GTA:W has made when it comes to features, they forgot to improve the one feature that drew me to this server in the first place: The quality of roleplay.

I'm not trying to make false equivocations to "the good ol' days" or try to impose that things were perfect then. Every era in a server has its problems, but with so many poorly thought out decisions, I'm forced to conclude that this server is lowering its standards to attract the largest player base possible; conflating quantity with quality.

The IC population portrayal was decided at a time when I was engaged heavily in Illegal RP, and it's honestly one of the worst decisions this staff team has ever stuck to. It was a safeguard for poor robbery RP, and extremely public shootings to flourish, with protections being handed out to police stations and government buildings while ignoring the many other 'monkeys in the middle. It was a license to steal.

This server feels more and more like a Cops Vs. Robbers plus victims server every day. Those appear to be the three roles: a cop, a robber, or a victim of senseless violence. Many Illegal RPers simply see civilian RPers as cash registers to be wrung. They see their businesses as piggie banks. The only way for civilian RPers to stop themselves from being constant victims is to limit themselves to wherever is “safe”. I’ve read reports of characters being kidnapped and murdered as to not leave witnesses, forced to jump off cliffs, beaten for not having “good loot” on them, killed for “snitching” by simply reporting the incident to police, and so on.

I imagine this drastic shift in quality is because of several reasons: The IC population portrayal enables poor roleplay to flourish anywhere and everywhere, the laughably lenient administrative punishments that fail to teach repeat rule-breakers the error of their actions, and in-fact just teach them to be smarter when covering up their rule-breaking activity, and the existence of RPQM which has resulted in people almost never being punished for their questionable portrayal during rulebreaking situations, as that is now a “RPQM concern”; as though we don’t all play on the same server and roleplay quality isn’t all of our concerns.

There is no one-sized fits all solution to this issue. I wish it was that simple. Everyone talking about bringing the Park Rangers into Los Santos is missing the scope of the issue. Nearly everyone I’ve spoken to regardless of the type of roleplay they engage in seems to agree that the server is regressing in its quality. When you foster an environment that attracts and caters to poor roleplayers, you, in turn, repel good roleplayers from entering or immersing themselves in the community. Everyone who plays GTA:W has to lower their standards of roleplay to the standards presented by the server in order to enjoy it. With such a large and dedicated player base, the server should be raising their standards, not becoming a victim of them.

I joined October 2018. Basically the same feelings. I'd take that buggy mess any day. I've enjoyed illegal and neutral RP in my time, never really dipping into legal factions much. It didn't always used to be like this, I've been here since 40 players was high pop. I used to love wandering and exploring the city, finding unique and weird RP all around as recently as early-mid 2020. Nowadays? I honestly don't see the point. It's so clear to me that as soon as my character steered away from illegal activity, I instantly felt like going from a character with agency to a walking ATM.

I've always tried making everything my character's experiences canon, or at least enough to make all RP I come across important and impactful. I once decided to give it a try to RP the way I used to, and counted 7 robberies that month alone. I'm not here to only have good things happen in my character's story, and I'm a big fan of using the bad with the good for the sake of development, but when there's this much going on how am I supposed to follow that up besides just moving away? It feels like character development HAS to ignore and retcon incidents every single week like it's a sitcom in order to keep your character from having a severe mental break.

I live in northern California, but I've spent time in LA. You know how you get around a big city without a car around? Walking everywhere. You know how many times I've been mugged? None. Not seven times in a month. There's harassment sometimes, but in general most people are just going to want to go about their day. California is not the way you think it is. One shooting in a news article justifies twenty in-game while also taking place in a setting with .1% of the population (because remember, the population is only as dense as the players that exist in an area.) People don't just wave weapons around, and people act with more fear for their life before jumping at robbing anyone they see. It's a dangerous city, but that's mostly due to its massive size (LA is as populated as the country of Georgia in a 500 square mile area.) which isn't what we have here. Calling the state of the server realistic feels delusional and shows a misunderstanding of what LA is like, if not what America is like in general. We don't live in an action movie. It's much more fun this way for active combat players, which I get and isn't always a bad thing, but please don't try to justify it as realistic.

 

I've tried running businesses, and it's honestly exhausting. You either open solo and risk a crowd of four coming in to harass or vandalize (nearly every opening) or put up with having to protect yourself since police are too busy to respond most of the time. Security is obviously the go-to, but the odds of anyone playing, being free, and wanting to actually work at the time you want to open is slim and a managerial nightmare. The end result is you either get a crowd of friends to come in with you to pad out the numbers, deal with the headache that is getting security at all times, or just having to cope with RPers that think they're the first ones to do what they're doing and not the third that week. Reporting all the terrible RP I see would overwhelm both admins and I, while also likely having no actual end results from the few times I've seen people try.

I put up with this for a long long time, because I loved the game and all the good times I've had in it. I don't anymore. I want to, but it's clear it's not the server for me like it used to be. I still want to play here. I want it to improve and feel like it used to, but it's hard to tell stories in an environment so openly hostile. It's not illegal RPers that's the problem. It's shitty RPers and the 'win or lose us vs them' mentality throughout the entire server going unchecked by management causing the server to feel like a warzone. I'll still remember my good times fondly, but I enjoyed GTAW specifically because you got to see some real depth and character development in all facets. Now it feels like a text version of medium RP voice servers, where you're playing to win and get ahead, or go down in the crossfire. Sure it might be fun, but not the depth and realism we used to have, and definitely not fun for everyone involved.

Edited December 30, 2021 by LizziePup

[shiroq]

Everyone is trying to overanalyze this but you don't need to look far to find the issue.

There is around 60 groups (unofficial factions) right now, even if half of them are completely inactive that it's 30 factions right now that are pretty much unregulated with only about 30-35 actual criminal factions "official" ones.

 

What do you expect when the "bottom" tier of the server is allowed to run around unregulated? There is no reason for that side of the server to put in any effort because they can NC slap a new thread have fun for a month and repeat the process because they have no accountability whatsoever.  The groups were tried once they turned out bad and the idea was shelved until it became a thing again.

Back when getting approved by IFM was the only way to be a faction, you had to make sure you did things properly and controlled your members etc otherwise your stay as a faction will be short and most likely you will get booted from making another faction for a while. There is none of that anymore due to groups.

There is a simple lack of standards being pushed onto the server with things becoming more relaxed. If the server population wants to have more "fun" and be less serious because it's just a game then this is what you will get.

The need to alllow people to stay on the server and be all inclusive "let's give them a 15th chance" is what's creating these issues and the groups system is a major part of the problem because unless they are mass dming they go by unnoticed unless someone makes a faction report on them and even then it's not enough as faction reports require more than just one member messing up to close them down.

[alina2137]

I have been saying most of this since I have joined GTA World back in October of 2018 and I am glad someone has finally had enough time and dedication to summerize my waterfalls of shit into a single, cohesive topic. Thank you Chromatic, you're always on some real shit.

 

I have been saying this since the beginning - crime should be limited to an extent because that's how many enjoyable servers have done it. Some server I have played on for example only allowed crime in certain areas which were considered outskirts - we were roleplaying in Paleto Bay and therefore the population condensation was higher than Los Santos and we were able to have consistent groups of people hanging out in the front of every business on most streets. Crime within the inner city was limited and risky because of an active player population - there was always someone there to call the police therefore we were able to just go on about our days without caring until 7PM which is when crime such as kidnapping, robberies and other shit like that was allowed.

I am absolutely not saying that GTA World should have crime allowed only within specific areas and time frames because it's an international community where players come from different timezones, but it would be a great idea to consider simply making rules that limit the amount of piss poor robberies and other violent crime that occurs.

 

To everyone who is a civilian roleplayer I advocate that you stand for your rights to report piss poor roleplay. If you get mugged or robbed in the middle of what would realistically be the main street of a district in Los Angeles, then just take a few breathers and report the party whilst it happens or after it happens. We have had admins say multiple times that whilst crime does not have location limits in the rules, we should still be aware of where and how we conduct it to make it realistic instead of literally mugging someone who is just walking their dog in Rockford Hills.

 

Personally I can say that this problem is there but it is partialy overblown, because me personally - I am able to walk around just fine during peak hours and nobody has ever robbed or tried to kidnap my character. I walk through the city calmly and just enjoy my time alone because everyone else is scared to walk around. Simply don't be scared for two reasosn.

First reason to walk instead of driving everywhere is that if we actually do it and build social hubs, we'll be more safe even if GTA World's staff can not be arsed to make proper rules. If you're in a populated area then even if something happens there is always someone who will witness it.

 

I have a feeling that many roleplayers overlook certain scenarios and particularly who is involved. When you get robbed by a hit squad of underage teenagers they're usually outcasts who didn't get accepted or got kicked out of factions. Actual factions on this server, like Chromatic has already said, have good roleplayers who know better than that. Whether it's the mafia or a gang. Those who go out of their way to mug people because "ThE aReA iS EmPtY ThErE aInT nO pLaYeRs HeRe CuH" are shit roleplayers and outcasts who are not wanted by factions.

 

I have been in many factions on this server including K-Town for example which never focused on going for robbery sprees, our higher ups had better ways to make money and therefore K-Town was safe, a good social hub and people enjoyed the community roleplay there. People formed into cliques, couples, worked together and hanged out together in local businesses. K-Town management at that time or our IC higher ups have rarely advised us to go on robbery sprees to get our money, but K-Town's Kkangpae is secretive and low key with their operations therefore not every faction will be like this.

 

And because not every faction will be like this, some players decide to conduct their business in more violent ways. I feel like severely violent gangs such as the Mara Salvatrucha were often used as cover ups for people to go on their power trips and roleplay some sickening shit, to then justify their brutality and extreme violence being part of their gang culture. BEWARE THAT I AM NOT SAYING ANY MS13 GANG THAT HAS BEEN ON THIS SERVER HAS BEEN NECESSARILY BAD, I'M JUST USING MS13 AS AN EXAMPLE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOTORIOUS FOR VIOLENCE.

 

Blaming factions and LEOs has always been a way to stir up a shitstorm on this server and for some people it was just done so they could cry about it. Many factions that I have and have not been in have been tolerant, accepting and entertaining for me. Armenian Power for example socializes a lot, they hang out at their business and they're not immediately sus about outsiders hanging out on their turf because realistically Los Santos is diverse and it's not just you and your homies living on a block. Many Motorcycle Gangs that I've roleplayed around are also friendly, accepting of civilians and good people to be around.

Why? Because factions, both LEO and ILLEGAL benefit from having civilians around not only to be victims or targets of investigation, but also signs that the area where a faction operates is actually active. FACTIONS WANT CIVILIANS AROUND THEM. FACTIONS are NOT the problem of this server, it's outcasts and retards who have been kicked out, denied or came back from a long ban holiday because a staff member was too nice to unban them early on or not keep a close eye on their behavior.

 

There has been a thread once, long ago, a PSA that simply said "Just report." And I advise everyone who feels wronged to open up reports on these individuals or groups who bend or break barriers of realism or rules in order to conduct shitty roleplay that might not even be badly executed, but might not benefit anyone involved.

You do not always win and you do not always lose. If crime is performed low-key and smart, it can leave a good impression on your victims. Most people on this server are not crybabies and assholes, but just like in politics - it's the retards and extremists who are the loudest and gain the most attention. We should honestly stop fighting, lower our weapons and just agree upon the fact that the only solution to this problem is to actually start socializing in public and reporting any idiocy that we stumble upon. Because no matter how many rules you put in place, outcasts and idiots will always find a way to bend them or work around them.

 

 

 

 

 

[Fancy Toothpaste]

4 minutes ago, shiroq said:

they go by unnoticed unless someone makes a faction report on them and even then it's not enough as faction reports require more than just one member messing up to close them down.

I just want to say I made a faction report on an unofficial group and was told by the handling IFM admin that faction reports are for official factions only. It appears that the general attitude towards unofficial groups is that they'll die out on their own, and thus IFM rarely does anything to police them. This pays absolutely no mind to the damage any of these groups manage to do in the meantime. 

[alina2137]

Just now, Fancy Toothpaste said:

I just want to say I made a faction report on an unofficial group and was told by the handling IFM admin that faction reports are for official factions only. It appears that the general attitude towards unofficial groups is that they'll die out on their own, and thus IFM rarely does anything to police them. This pays absolutely no mind to the damage any of these groups manage to do in the meantime. 

Agreed and like I said above - outcasts and retards - that's basically the less politically correct way of saying unofficial groups. It's weird how they're allowed to do such great damage and bring such a bad image to legit factions despite not really being shit.

[KinnyWynny]

[shiroq]

1 minute ago, Fancy Toothpaste said:

I just want to say I made a faction report on an unofficial group and was told by the handling IFM admin that faction reports are for official factions only. It appears that the general attitude towards unofficial groups is that they'll die out on their own, and thus IFM rarely does anything to police them. This pays absolutely no mind to the damage any of these groups manage to do in the meantime. 

Well then here you go just more evidence that the groups system is broken. Being a faction shouldn't be a right, it should be an opportunity simple as that.

[LizziePup]

15 minutes ago, Fancy Toothpaste said:

I just want to say I made a faction report on an unofficial group and was told by the handling IFM admin that faction reports are for official factions only. It appears that the general attitude towards unofficial groups is that they'll die out on their own, and thus IFM rarely does anything to police them. This pays absolutely no mind to the damage any of these groups manage to do in the meantime. 

What I'd like is a clear concise answer on who does manage groups. RPQM? Does anyone? I was so in favor of groups when they first started to see more variety and opportunity for niche communities, but it's just boiled down to just unmanaged factions (sometimes from people kicked out of existing factions) that can crop up without any expectation of quality. It sucks.

Edited December 30, 2021 by LizziePup

[books]

i understand this is an issue for some people, but the realism complaint doesn't really make much sense to me? because yeah if a city was 90% populated by active criminals and law enforcement officers like los santos is then it would be realistic for there to be this much violence/crime

 

the truth is that if you're roleplaying a civilian you're already in a niche, if you roleplay a civilian who is a middle class person (isn't a model etc) you're literally in probably the smallest pool of people on the server. is it fair that you're the butt of every crime? yeah well you sort of chose that i guess. what do you expect? there's not really a whole lot of civilian roleplay on the server, there's about 3 civilian factions that aren't government aligned. the roleplay on the server clearly is orientated around gangs/ocgs vs leo, and that's fine because in and of itself its quite interesting. 90% of the factions/groups are illegal orientated and their entire roleplay requires 'victims', which you quite naturally are as your 20 year old college character

 

maybe this just is because i have been robbed once in 500/700 hours while only playing civilian characters, and in that case the character deserved it/was in an alleyway in the middle of davis so idc, but to me this doesn't seem like quite as big as a problem as some people make it out to be. perhaps you're being oocly targeted? if this was truly something people wanted to address, simply making an area a safezone would resolve it, but until then you'll just have to accept you're here to be the victim, that's the setting and that's literally your role

 

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-12-04/brutal-brazen-incidents-push-crime-into-focus-in-l-a

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by books