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Reworking the Alarm System and Burglaries


Bospy

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Very nice suggestion, opening again a business section that was deemed dead or reserved for clubs only. Security companies  could specialize in installing and monitoring alarms.

 

 

As for the rest of comments. RPG or not, not everything can be left to roleplay. We all know how it ends, when we roleplay everything without script.

Basic example unrelated but fitting. Roleplay fight, nobody wants the L there, they can keep hitting each other for years and arguing why their opponent isn't falling down. So there must be some script. Also hate to break it for you guys, but once you log off, your character goes into a stasis, they are not anywhere. Pretending they are at home, is powergaming in this case.

Edited by Engelbert
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The people acting like they just discovered fire by complaining that when they "log off their character would actually be at home to deal with alarms and intruders" are conveniently ignoring the fact that most residents in-game don't go to work so realism goes out the door. Regular people are usually gone from their home 9-5 (or some other shift) five days a week. That leaves an 8 hour window when your home is uninhabited. Or is everyone in the city a hermit except when they go to "work" as a "bartender" for two hours a week in some night club.

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Hard disagree with this suggestion. Massively overcomplicates the alarm mechanics with not very many benefits for those who have alarms, and nothing but benefits for those breaking into homes, which is common enough as it is (Source: I was in an LEO faction for a year and a half). Requiring everyone to re-purchase alarm systems for all of their properties is also hopeful and a bit ridiculous, there are those with multiple business fronts, are you expecting them to drop over 200 grand per business for an alarm system with recurring payments to a security company in order to keep them? How are they meant to roleplay their alarm systems suddenly not functioning if they cannot afford to install one and pay upkeep? Does everything have to be turned into a grind?

 

This suggestion is being recommended by someone who stands to gain from it (ZaXer) given they run Gruppe Six. Gruppe Six, as it stands, has a relative monopoly on the property security industry, and if this was implemented, LFM would need to seriously ramp up efforts to create/promote additional security companies, as not everyone has an IC reason to hire G6, and some characters even have reason not to hire them. Forcing everyone to use the same security company is as draconian as it is unfair, it would choke out any prospective competition in an instant as it's hard enough to establish legal factions such as these in the first place. It would be nearly impossible to go up against a corporation rooted in GTA lore and with as much backing as G6 has.

 

While a novel idea, I see absolutely no reason for it, beyond making it easier for burglaries to occur. This server is already bordering on cops&robbers, implementing this would incentivize that mindset even further and more or less punish anyone caught in the middle (Civilians who aren't criminals) for owning a home or business. Don't replace a system with an inherently more one-sided one that relies on RNG. Either have the burglars need to play smart to not have the alarm go off (doing their research, emoting looking for alarm boxes, glassbreak sensors and circumventing them through RP), or have them target places without alarms already in place. Just my two cents.

 

EDIT: After a thorough re-read of the original post and the rest of the thread, seeing who is responding with support and who is responding with disagreement...

 

It is abundantly clear to me that this suggestion was written to benefit burglars and Gruppe Six directly. These alarm prices are, if you'll forgive the turn of phrase, frankly retarded. In no world is anyone paying two million dollars to ensure their alarm actually does its job when packages exist IRL for $70-100/month that are nearly 100% effective. I sincerely hope this isn't serious, because if it is, it just goes to show how entirely out of touch the IFM team is with reality on the server. 

 

Civilian characters are already cannon fodder. Literal walking stepping stones for MASK_ABC12_12345's Jordans to tread upon when he pulls up on them in Legion Square and hops out with a copy pasted emote. Pay pigs to the whim of the Criminal Masterminds Of Los Santos, granted a modicum of respect only through how fast they run the accept robbery command. Already completely dumped all over for even thinking about using their CCWs to defend themselves, with 'fear baiting' becoming more and more common as an OOC tactic to CK civvies that are disliked. You wonder why noone walks anywhere or hangs out outside other than across from the Pillbox Bank? It's due to the mindset that they exist only as pockets to be ran, and no amount of being in a public place can stop it. People barely want to play neutral characters as it is after the IFM ruling, other than those who have drank the nightclub kool-aid and keep their blinders on, blissfully ignorant because they never leave their apartments and only log on to go /ravedance for 2 hours and log off.

 

Mark my words, if this gets added to the server, you won't need to worry about break-ins being a problem anymore. There won't be enough people to burglarize left when they all quit after being turned more and more into lambs to the slaughter for months on end with one-sided rule implementations. Unbelievable. Merry Christmas, everyone.

Edited by ChromaticDeath
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42 minutes ago, ChromaticDeath said:

Hard disagree with this suggestion. Massively overcomplicates the alarm mechanics with not very many benefits for those who have alarms, and nothing but benefits for those breaking into homes, which is common enough as it is (Source: I was in an LEO faction for a year and a half). Requiring everyone to re-purchase alarm systems for all of their properties is also hopeful and a bit ridiculous, there are those with multiple business fronts, are you expecting them to drop over 200 grand per business for an alarm system with recurring payments to a security company in order to keep them? How are they meant to roleplay their alarm systems suddenly not functioning if they cannot afford to install one and pay upkeep? Does everything have to be turned into a grind?

 

This suggestion is being recommended by someone who stands to gain from it (ZaXer) given they run Gruppe Six. Gruppe Six, as it stands, has a relative monopoly on the property security industry, and if this was implemented, LFM would need to seriously ramp up efforts to create/promote additional security companies, as not everyone has an IC reason to hire G6, and some characters even have reason not to hire them. Forcing everyone to use the same security company is as draconian as it is unfair, it would choke out any prospective competition in an instant as it's hard enough to establish legal factions such as these in the first place. It would be nearly impossible to go up against a corporation rooted in GTA lore and with as much backing as G6 has.

 

While a novel idea, I see absolutely no reason for it, beyond making it easier for burglaries to occur. This server is already bordering on cops&robbers, implementing this would incentivize that mindset even further and more or less punish anyone caught in the middle (Civilians who aren't criminals) for owning a home or business. Don't replace a system with an inherently more one-sided one that relies on RNG. Either have the burglars need to play smart to not have the alarm go off (doing their research, emoting looking for alarm boxes, glassbreak sensors and circumventing them through RP), or have them target places without alarms already in place. Just my two cents.

Now quick disclaimer, I don't think this suggestion works, I also think its way overpriced with how weird the server economy works, most people recieve lump sums of cash every once in awhile, not through paychecks, usually. With that said...

 

This response is a little rich considering the current alarm/burglary system is a criminal grindfest where you get to wait 2 plus hours to maybe, maybe, find some booze in an apartment. I know not everyone plays criminals, but being somewhat creative as a criminal is downright shit and the alarm system does need a revamp. This system desperately needs a rework because the only incentive to rob a house is to grab someones privately own firearms, and their drugs. The only time breaking into houses is worth it is breaking into a criminal factions safehouse for their stacked up loot. Which usually won't have an alarm installed in the first place since the police will swarm the house like a cartel drug bust. Its so insanely lopsided that burglaries, one of the most common American crimes, is shit, is done by shitty roleplayers who only use it to grind, and entirely discourages fun roleplay driven robberies of items like TV's, your copper wiring and all your jewelry, y'know like normal house robberies. SO yeah, this is a novel idea, but we desperately need a fix.

 

Criminal roleplay as much as its disliked is as much of a valid concern as legal, dare I say its more of a concern than legal roleplay since without it, most legal roleplay which LFM usually cares about (i.e LEO roleplay) wouldn't exist. And I think a better discussion is working on a compromise with the alarm system than straight up saying its not needed. If you've never tried to rob a house, of course you'll say its not needed. But a lot of people have, and a lot of people absolutely hated the experience, myself included. It was so boring, to the point where I got in and stole like, a bottle of god damn sprunk, I walked out and had three METRO units pointing heavy pistols at my character two minutes after I entered the building itself.

 

The current system is shit and encourages bad criminal roleplay. Change it, or at least add false positives to the system, if thats the only part of the script that is updated, it'd fix burglaries so god damn much. I just want to steal a TV item and wreck your house up a bit, I don't need an Afghani SEAL raid after my tweaker characters b-hind because of a midnight house exploration.

 

Alarms are not perfect, they create false positives, and police rarely respond to break-in alarms unless the company that installs them specifically states in their policy that police will be contacted. That doesn't need to translate entirely to the game, but there should be a better script system for this type of roleplay, give criminal roleplayers a bone, we all wanna have fun, and occasionally getting your house burglarized because you only have a cheap alarm or no alarm at all isn't going to kill you. It's a videogame, these items are worth nothing.

Edited by KinnyWynny
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On 12/18/2021 at 4:40 PM, Keane said:

I think everyone can agree that alarms in their current form are too powerful but the proposed changes shift the balance way too far towards those breaking in. There's a bunch of factors that were considered at the time of the alarms being implemented that were used to make them as powerful as they are.

One of the biggest factors was the fact that people spend a lot of time in their homes. Naturally nobody can play 24 hours a day (though some of you guys do...) so that leaves houses essentially defenseless when you're not online. There is also the fact that players can wait until the owner logs off. I myself experienced this. After being followed home, I stayed on for about an hour. Within an hour of me logging off, the house was broken into. Realistically my character could have reacted to the break in seeing as they brute forced their way through a solid front door to get in but since I logged off, I did not get a chance to. The second property on the same character (which was never used and was awaiting a mapper) was broken into within 24 hours while I was offline too which added to my suspicion that something was off. These were, and still are, the only two times my properties have been broken into also. Making it so alarms can be completely mitigated completely removes the ability to counter this and isn't how we should go about nerfing alarms. 

 

There's also the fact that break ins are not conducted realistically. Rather than stealing expensive items like electronics or checking bedrooms for things like jewelry, break in crews will completely ignore anything out in the open and seek guns and drugs. There should be ways to make money from stealing non-scripted items. Players should be able to get laptops, tablets, TVs etc. and be able to sell them on. It would likely have to be an NPC as the demand for electronics is much lower in-game because they're one command away from being added from an interior. 

 

Any methods of fighting against alarms should be only a delaying action to help promote more realistic RP and prevent houses from being absolutely cleaned out an hour after the owner logs off. The burglary system unfortunately has many players who use it maliciously. Between my own personal experience, seeing break ins myself (people breaking into banned players houses right after they get banned for example) and reports of players metagaming faction threads to hit properties, there is a strong need to have a big degree of protection from houses being cleared completely by players who will search every single inch of the property for items based on OOC information. I'm fully behind giving players more time inside a property to let proper RP occur. There just has to be some sort of alarm go off or other police notification. 

 

False positives should really become a thing to prevent a bunch of cops showing up to every break in. Have the notification specify that there's potentially a break in occurring. While it won't make too much of a difference during the quiet times, it will help reduce the amount of responding units when there's other calls going on. Right now the protocol is to surround the house and move in when there's enough backup because it's a guarantee that someone broke in or at least attempted to. One other thing to consider though is the type of people that break in. Burglars being armed and willing to shoot at cops who respond to break ins have become a lot more common so it's resulting in a bigger police response. I've dealt with such a situation myself. There was enough people with guns to warrant a tactical team response to handle a break in. In fact, on that call there was more guns than people inside. If we want a situation where only one or two units will be the initial response to an alarm, then there needs to be a lot less guns involved. Combine that with false positives and a push from LFM to have factions moderate the responses to property alarms and we'll have a big improvement. To clarify, by moderating the response to property alarms I mean mandating a non-emergency response unless there's a good reason to believe there's someone inside and limiting the amount of units that respond to the initial report. 

 

The idea of restricting higher end alarms to more expensive properties is something I can support. The market price of a property should determine what level of alarm can be given to the property. This prevents cheap apartments from having high end security. Alarms should have a weekly upkeep cost. If it's not paid, then the alarm doesn't function. A regular upkeep cost is better than huge upfront fees. It also makes more sense. 

 

The fact that those inside are notified of the alarm going off AFTER the cops are needs to be changed. At the minimum the cops and those inside should be notified at the same time to allow some sort of risk to breaking in. Response times within the city are less than a minute when there's units available and are never more than three or four minutes when it's busy unless every unit is doing something. As a result, the notification happening at the same time is a lot more balanced.

 

I would like to again stress the point that alarms should never be disabled completely to keep the gameplay balance. Break ins have the potential to really make the property owner take a massive loss so there has to be away to counter them. Making it easier to escape, increasing the amount of time before the alarm goes off to allow RP to occur and allowing players to make money through non-script items is a lot more balanced than what's been suggested here.

Now with what I said above. THIS is the real suggestion.

 

Please make this a reality.

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1 minute ago, KinnyWynny said:

Post

 

While you're technically not wrong in several of your points, here is why the entire force shows up when a house is being robbed: because every few house robberies, or at least an impressive amount of them, result in a massive fucking shootout where the burglars come out guns blazing and turn the place into Little Mogadishu because they don't think they can escape by just scattering like ants. 

 

I cannot tell you how many breakins I have been to where I have needed to shoot someone while I was an LEO RPer. Hell, my first break-in I responded to, we didn't even have the house surrounded and they came out and immediately started shooting at us, no questions asked. This isn't the fault of players like yourself who just want their crackhead character to steal a TV (which I think is incredibly based) but that's why. ( Example here: https://streamable.com/7yln9y )

 

My reply doesn't come from a place of malice. It comes from a place of being completely fed up with the status quo. I desperately want to see a day on GTA:W where civilians can do civilian shit and have cool fun public RP without being picked off by robbers, and where criminal RPers can have their fun as well but it doesn't feel like tedium, or they don't need to wait hours on end to do anything. But this suggestion isn't that. It's counterproductive and only adds insult to injury to the most marginalized archetype on the server: the monkeys in the middle.

 

I have RPed both sides of the fence. I've participated in a few burglaries across two of my characters - one of whom has been to TTCF four times, once for second degree murder. In no way am I approaching this solely from the angle that 'criminals are bad' because I have been there and done that. But throwing a bone... this is more like throwing the entire skeleton. An agreeable median would be giving burglars more time to roleplay inside the properties. Having an alarm not go off due to some arbitrary system rather than actual planning and a thought out, surgical approach makes buying an alarm mostly pointless. 

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Great suggestion.

 

I see a lot of people crying that this is somehow unfair, but in reality this just levels the playing field and creates more organic RP around burglaries and security industry RP as a whole. The current system is really barebones to the point that it gets gamed and abused. Cops will respond to alarms in an unrealistic way/numbers because it's known that there are no false positives, it's guaranteed "action"; that is to say there's going to be something going on. It also leaves probably the most influential part of home security, the security companies entirely out of the picture. Starving them of what should be their largest area of RP. 

 

For those reasons, not only do I think the current system is being gamed and abused. I think it's very actively hurting the server and limiting potential. I do see how this system could at it's immediate release see problems, there would be a gap of time needed allowing security companies and players to be able to get their footing otherwise the server would be overwhelmed with a string of breakin's stretching a mile long. However, given a small amount of time for things to take off I think this would be a system everyone from PD, to civilians to criminals would enjoy.

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9 hours ago, ChromaticDeath said:

 

While you're technically not wrong in several of your points, here is why the entire force shows up when a house is being robbed: because every few house robberies, or at least an impressive amount of them, result in a massive fucking shootout where the burglars come out guns blazing and turn the place into Little Mogadishu because they don't think they can escape by just scattering like ants. 

 

I cannot tell you how many breakins I have been to where I have needed to shoot someone while I was an LEO RPer. Hell, my first break-in I responded to, we didn't even have the house surrounded and they came out and immediately started shooting at us, no questions asked. This isn't the fault of players like yourself who just want their crackhead character to steal a TV (which I think is incredibly based) but that's why. ( Example here: https://streamable.com/7yln9y )

 

My reply doesn't come from a place of malice. It comes from a place of being completely fed up with the status quo. I desperately want to see a day on GTA:W where civilians can do civilian shit and have cool fun public RP without being picked off by robbers, and where criminal RPers can have their fun as well but it doesn't feel like tedium, or they don't need to wait hours on end to do anything. But this suggestion isn't that. It's counterproductive and only adds insult to injury to the most marginalized archetype on the server: the monkeys in the middle.

 

I have RPed both sides of the fence. I've participated in a few burglaries across two of my characters - one of whom has been to TTCF four times, once for second degree murder. In no way am I approaching this solely from the angle that 'criminals are bad' because I have been there and done that. But throwing a bone... this is more like throwing the entire skeleton. An agreeable median would be giving burglars more time to roleplay inside the properties. Having an alarm not go off due to some arbitrary system rather than actual planning and a thought out, surgical approach makes buying an alarm mostly pointless. 

 

1) Tier the alarms to alert security companies first (if there is one or someone online from that security company), police second. Get rid of this "reliability" crap based on how much the alarm costs.

2) Introduce false positives.

3) Increase timers on the alarms before anyone is alerted, so that the criminals have more time to play it out. The admin can always choose to take a different direction at their own discretion based on the quality of RP being presented during the break-in.

 

Boom. All this other stuff is just way over complicated.

Edited by - Alfie -
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On 12/18/2021 at 11:28 AM, slump said:

Big no from me, alarms are very effective in reality and costs are cheap for the average American family. Monthly payments less than a car note for alarms that are highly reliable. I agree that it needs a re work but this proposition is fairly ridiculous in the costs and role you want to create. 

 

 

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this pretty much

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