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Discussion: Illegal Faction Revamp


honey.

Do you want to see the faction tier system on the server instead of the current faction system?  

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2 minutes ago, honey. said:

Time is not the only factor, however, it is to ensure all factions are treated equally and no one gets the chance to be fast tracked based on who they know. It is to reduce and hopefully remove nepotism as much as we can.

My worry isn't about time being the only factor; perhaps I'm misreading or misinterpreting the initial post, but I meant more that the time limit set on a faction before they're given the chance to progress. I understand needing things to be fair, however, rather than having something as long as a 3 month waiting period (I understand this is to promote longevity), the absolute minimum time between factions progressing tiers should be a month just to ensure they aren't sprinting through the system. I think a good counter to this is a more in-depth look in to why a faction would be applying for progression earlier than the current 3 month period, through asking or looking in to their growth over the time since their last 'upgrade' in order to make sure they're not just trying to game this new system - though, I understand this could be a bit much for IFM to deal with as there'll likely be a LOT of requests.

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3 minutes ago, nateX said:

I'll be blunt here, some of the most problematic factions are or were run by staff members in the past and currently, IFM included. I can go on and on about this but I don't want to derail the thread, feel free to message me if you want me to send you a full document with issues with links to information and whatnot, since my past attempts at providing feedback to the leaders of these factions got completely ignored. Maybe your voice would be heard.

 

That's why I'm personally hesitant about this update. We've all seen admin favoured factions abuse other players and close down a bunch of factions. Will this tier system be another way for IFM favoured factions to hold complete power and be untouchable? That's why I'm hesitant on stuff like this because I can see it getting abused to better certain factions. 

 

 

Edited by Tony White
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Disenfranchised role-players who are anti-social, low quality role-players who are broadly disliked by the illegal faction community but manage to get by are now entitled to free stuff. 

 

I can't support a system that entitles and offers factions that may not be respected by the community at large not an opportunity but a guaranteed set of  guns, drugs, properties, mods, and a domain? I cannot support a system that uplifts undeserving factions. I am a firm believer in all factions having been created equally, they all have leaders, the ability to recruit new members, the ability to apply for opportunities, schemes, properties, and ultimately supplier. What this is doing is not only offering dinosaur factions that may not even really contribute to the scheme free stuff, but hard limiting new and upcoming factions from acquiring IFM properties. 

 

I say this as the former leader of the oldest faction on the server, there is no benefit to giving OLD factions free stuff, they should have been able to acquire these things on their own, they should be able to ICLY create connections and secure these opportunities, or apply for supplier.

 

This will create a copious amount of work for IFM to do, having to spawn in drops for 20+ factions on top of supplier drives, on top of approving faction threads, on top of monitoring faction quality, responding to scheme requests, IFM property requests, the list goes on - you simply cannot do it all, you are overbearing yourselves with responsibilities. Which will ultimately lead to the total and complete demise of this awful system, you do not have the resources, the time, nor do you care enough to monitor factions as is

 

If you cannot adequately monitor faction quality now, how do you intend on doing so for every single tier application? Even then, there is no established definition of what 'good roleplay quality' even is, it is all subjective. This is a system that takes something that is already incredibly simple, offers opportunity to everybody equally, and TIME-GATES it like it's an MMORPG, grinding and existing forever making you more powerful than other factions.

 

You are overcomplicating the system and this will ultimately lead towards a total administrative mess, we are trying to fix the system to remedy the lack of longevity within factions in south central, we all know that is what this is about. The fact of the matter is, if the faction leaders and members are not up to snuff, they do not deserve to exist nor do will they continue to exist! 

 

Addressing Demotivation

 

I cannot help but laugh at the notion; people who believe that the following reasons are reasons to be demotivated do not want to do it, or want to be spoon fed. I will refute them all briefly.

 

Lack of Progression: Would never be said by anybody who cares to create and facilitate roleplay for others and create interesting roleplay environments, players who say this want arbitrary power, they want to deathmatch, and they want free stuff.

 

Supplier Selectivity: Suppliers are high-quality and vetted role-players by the IFM team, the issue is very obviously supply and demand; as I have always said, IFM DECIDES WHO GETS SUPPLIER, if they want to give it to street gangs, there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so, which renders this tiered give outs system redundant and pointless. Open up supplier to more street level role-players.

 

Faction Favoritism: Society has it's outcasts, there are simply some people who do not deserve to be brought to the forefront and are not given opportunity for a reason, when factions are known for deathmatching, instigating random conflict, and ultimately being noobs- but cannot be handled by IFM as it is out of their scope (so they claim), again- as I mentioned previously, factions manage to get by despite being full of shit heads.

 

If factions cannot get along with other factions ICLY, that is their fault for destroying their opportunities to get anywhere. If I go around pissing everybody off and being a dumb ass, deathmatching but getting away with it, overall being a shit head- but I post really really good roleplay screenshots, I am entitled to go up in the tiers and get more free guns to deathmatch with, brilliant idea! -_-

 

Incentives: One's incentive to lead a faction should simply be to create roleplay for others, not for free stuff, lol!!!!!- if anyone genuinely believes that factions need incentives to keep going? They should not be leading factions.

 

The poll is obviously a welfare poll, VOTE FOR FREE STUFF BRO!!!!! Everyone is going to vote for it, it's obviously what people want- MORE GUNS, MORE DRUGS, MORE STUFF- but this is only at face value, if you are going to make a decision based on a poll, I encourage you to poll for demographics and search for a relationship between what factions believe this system will work and who voted for more guns, I think this is necessary information and should be addressed on an individual basis, it will be very clear to see who wants this to be put in place. (Mostly going to be noobs.)

 

TL;DR

System will not work, will create way too much work for IFM, IFM will not be able to adequately gauge faction quality due to being so busy with new overbearing responsibilities, alleged issues are people wanting free stuff and being sad/moody :(.

 

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13 minutes ago, Tony White said:

this tier system be another way for IFM favoured factions to hold complete power and be untouchable?

 

This is nothing good, just gives more power to IFM despite the constant complaints about corruption and bias within. It seems counterintuitive given what new 'standards' were promised.

 

Also I don't like the monthly drug / gun dynamic. Everything should be gained organically, making contacts with the right people etc instead of relying and waiting on the next IFM handout.

Edited by Jacksquare
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I think this is great. Adding to this, I think a zero tolerance policy should be given to unofficial factions who receive faction strikes. There's currently a plethora of unofficial factions whose members are constantly involved in rule breaking. This ruins immersion for already established factions. The rules are there and should be read by factions who actively want to contribute to the illegal RP scene in a realistic and fair manner. 

Edited by moD
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5 minutes ago, nateX said:

I'll be blunt here, some of the most problematic factions are or were run by staff members in the past and currently, IFM included. I can go on and on about this but I don't want to derail the thread, feel free to message me if you want me to send you a full document with issues with links to information and whatnot, since my past attempts at providing feedback to the leaders of these factions got completely ignored. Maybe your voice would be heard.

Hit me up. Quality should be enforced regardless of someone's affiliation to a faction in particular and that is something that will continue on throughout this tier system if implemented, or at least, it will even make it stricter on those who "should" be the ones providing the most quality.

 

2 minutes ago, lucky_ said:

My worry isn't about time being the only factor; perhaps I'm misreading or misinterpreting the initial post, but I meant more that the time limit set on a faction before they're given the chance to progress. I understand needing things to be fair, however, rather than having something as long as a 3 month waiting period (I understand this is to promote longevity), the absolute minimum time between factions progressing tiers should be a month just to ensure they aren't sprinting through the system. I think a good counter to this is a more in-depth look in to why a faction would be applying for progression earlier than the current 3 month period, through asking or looking in to their growth over the time since their last 'upgrade' in order to make sure they're not just trying to game this new system - though, I understand this could be a bit much for IFM to deal with as there'll likely be a LOT of requests.

I understand your concern. We need some form of universal standard that we can hold everyone to, and the only thing that all factions fit into when it comes to boxes, is how long they've been around. If there is a better idea for how we can hold a universal standard, I am all ears believe me. This idea is not flawless, I will not claim it is, but we do need something to ensure that everyone is treated fairly. No one gets rushed through, no one gets helping hands, everyone gets treated the same as individuals.

 

3 minutes ago, Tony White said:

That's why I'm personally hesitant about this update. We've all seen admin favoured factions abuse other players and close down a bunch of factions. Will this tier system be another way for IFM favoured factions to hold complete power and be untouchable? That's why I'm hesitant on stuff like this because I can see it getting abused to better certain factions. 

I want to highlight this so bear with me for the long response.

 

I have not been on any previous community, I do not know how things were ran there. I joined IFM to make the scene better, and a better place for all and not just those who I know or who I think are good. No faction should be untouchable, it is really unfortunate that some people feel some are, or worry about doing certain actions in case they are held against them on an OOC basis. This really should never happen and I am a firm believer of that. IFM has not been great at moderating this in the past but this is the first step in making a change.

 

These kinds of changes would usually be discussed, in house, IFM, the council, all within that circle. This is not the case anymore. We will not be giving certain players the priority to be heard over others. It is not fair and it is an age old system.

 

The illegal faction council has been disbanded as of today. 

 

No one's opinion is worth more than the rest when it comes to something that impacts all of us as a community. There should not be any favored factions. In order to avoid this, we want to make a system where feedback is given, constructive. Factions need to be given the chance to grow, the chance to get better. Factions should not just be given a "nah not today" and nothing else. IFM must provide reasons and be held accountable. This will avoid shadow decisions, sly decisions, anything going under the radar as such.

 

I know again, these are all words on a screen and probably something someone before me has preached already, but IFM is changing and this is the first step in actually working with the community rather than working for it. All feedback here is so important to making this a better place for everyone to be roleplaying within.

 

1 minute ago, Jacksquare said:

This. (the quote above)

 

Also I don't like the monthly drug / gun dynamic. Everything should be gained organically, making contacts with the right people etc instead of relying and waiting on the next IFM handout.

Suppliers will not be removed, they will still exist. If people are relying on this new system solely they simply are not a good roleplayer and we hope to avoid that. We want to avoid creating "faction bubbles". This is why factions will be given SPECIFIC drugs, SPECIFIC weapons, this is to make sure they cannot just cut everything else out, they will still be required to make connections.

 

1 minute ago, moD said:

I think this is great. Adding to this, I think a zero tolerance policy should be given to unofficial factions who receive faction strikes. There's currently a plethora of unofficial factions who's members are constantly involved in rule breaking. This ruins immersion from already established factions. The rules are there and should be read by factions who actively want to contribute to the illegal RP scene in a realistic and fair manner. 

This is something honestly we haven't covered in this tier system, good spot. I agree and this will be added to the discussion notes, thank you.

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12 minutes ago, nateX said:

I'll be blunt here, some of the most problematic factions are or were run by staff members in the past and currently, IFM included. I can go on and on about this but I don't want to derail the thread, feel free to message me if you want me to send you a full document with issues with links to information and whatnot, since my past attempts at providing feedback to the leaders of these factions got completely ignored. Maybe your voice would be heard.

 

Absolutely agreed. And even if that issue is rooted out, IFM will still have some biases, it's only natural. It's just that they have to get ahead of the biases somehow. Even if the staff member is not present at the decisions that may cause conflict of interest, they still have friendships with other staff. There should be some way for the common folk to point out the inaccuracies and problems without getting ignored or chased off.

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Sorry but could someone read this thread out and vocaroo it for me? My attention span keeps thinking about goblins goddamnit

 

 

Noto bene: In all seriousness this is a great suggestion and great idea.

 

 

Noto bene again: I have not read this.

Edited by All Pigs Must Die
Spelt things wrong because goblins
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In this day and age, there is absolutely zero reason for a group/faction/whatever you want to call it to be excluded from having basic organisational abilities over their members in the form of a faction chat and the like. 

 

Gone should be the days where basic perks such as faction chats are held on a pedestal. The very fact that Discord has become so popular is because it allows OOC organisation/monitoring of members and ranks, and that should tell you something as the faction management team.

 

If a faction shows that they are serious about sticking around, this tier system only serves to benefit those people and will reward them for their efforts, but at least gives them a basic level of in game functionality/script assistance as a tier 0 faction. 

 

I support this idea, with the caveat that we should use this as a precedent moving forward to stop imposing so many OOC restrictions/provisions on things. Faction management should be there to steer and guide factions, and not outright interfere - not that I'm saying that's what's happening right now, but there certainly does seem to be some degree of nepotism or bias when it comes to factions. Giving everybody a base level of functionality will help combat that.

 

Put people on the same footing (equal opportunity) and allow those who have the drive/ability to stay the course and progress. Those who don't will sink to the bottom.

Edited by Joseph Tarano
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I think the emphasized points have been somewhat misrepresented to divert the criticism to alternate areas and most of them directly correlate to one another. What it does is offer selective members of the community a handicap position. The lack of progression is parallel supplier selectivity and faction favouritism in the sense that they're honoured based on their OOC positioning much more than they are their IC standing. For example, supplier roles carry across characters and not factions. The aforementioned supplier creates a brand new faction establishing themselves as a "plug" from day one with no prior development and this propels them into much more prominence than any of the already-established factions because of the player base's lust for guns and drugs. I heard somebody mention that IFM fast track "established leaders," which is impractical. A faction should be judged on its roleplay and not somebody's OOC standing in the community or with IFM members.

 

But to touch a bit on faction favouritism I feel that it's completely opposite to what's described. Factions are not given precedence over good roleplay and I believe good illegal roleplay is largely overlooked for the most part. If anything, faction favouritism is influenced by your OOC network and intermediaries. I think heathen's case is a good example to bring to light to emphasize just how institutionalized the system actually is. Fundamentally the apparatus has been flawed for that long that there is more discussions than there is fixes. The reason factions don't have longevity is because they're given very little help and even less discourse. The tier system's essentially just a transcript of LSRP's "point" system.

 

What I don't like about GTAw's illegal aspect of the server is that everything is micromanaged. There is so much unnecessary bureaucracy involved that it completely dilutes and affects the IC landscape. Having to jump through countless OOC hoops just to explain every little step of your roleplay is what is serving as a deterrent here. I generally think inexperience plays a huge factor in this too. I was having a conversation the other day about it and it was brought up that the focus is in all the wrong places. There is too much underscoring on impracticalities when the emphasis should be put on functionalism. 

 

I'm personally happy that the impartiality has been addressed because it was the elephant in the room for a long time. I noticed IFM has a council compromised of non-staff roleplayers and I think to increase transparency they could be involved in these discussions too. But for an Illegal Faction Revamp to work I think management (or IFM's leader) would need to revamp IFM itself. We have been going through countless discussions, reviews and polls for months but there has only been very minor changes implemented, if any. Something like this is only good in theory because when it comes to the execution we'll be back to square one again.

 

I think transparency would give us more faith in the system.

 

For a day or two I think giving us, the community, a look into how factions are assessed would give us a lot more clarity into the decisions that go into enforcing factions. Is there a way IFM, or management, would make these "official applications" public or read-only for a few days or a week?

 

It shouldn't take weeks to get answers that can be given in minutes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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