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Discussion: Illegal Faction Revamp


khadijeh.

Do you want to see the faction tier system on the server instead of the current faction system?  

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58 minutes ago, yungskywalker said:

 Wouldn't it be completely fair if all Supplier Applications & Acceptances are transparent and public? People already know who has what supplier status and what faction they belong to (if they have 1) so you can't really complain about MG or any OOC shit because it happens even now when everything is behind IFM doors. Yeah it might disclose some sensitive IG information about whoopty-whoop on the Application but that can be handled like MG off of faction screenshots, which happens but is dealt with 100% of the time. In addition, if applications were public, it gives people a chance to call out some bullshit that they can verify but IFM and Admins can't. If people actually saw these applications and who were selected. it'll shut people up about Biases, unless there's an actual complete bias which forces IFM to act appropriate and accordingly. A lot of people base their shit on hearsay and what not, let IFM prove that they aren't biased and that they follow their own guidelines into choosing Suppliers. If there is no bias then no one can say shit about the process.

Make supplier applications and acceptances transparent and public to all.

1) While it might be obvious for you who suppliers are, it is not obvious at all for 99% of the players. And being fully public would be massively MG'd.

2) Suppliers share secret faction details / IC schemes that would be massively MG'd too

3) Out of 50+ applications per batch, only 2-3 are accepted. It's not because the 47 others are bad, it's just that the best of the best at that specific moment of evaluation are selected. Having it public would give no purpose at all since everyone would just complain even more about why they weren't selected. This new tier process is here to reduce the usage of lone suppliers and the negativity surrounding it, so everyone has more chance to access the supplying system.

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32 minutes ago, Nervous said:

1) While it might be obvious for you who suppliers are, it is not obvious at all for 99% of the players. And being fully public would be massively MG'd.

2) Suppliers share secret faction details / IC schemes that would be massively MG'd too

3) Out of 50+ applications per batch, only 2-3 are accepted. It's not because the 47 others are bad, it's just that the best of the best at that specific moment of evaluation are selected. Having it public would give no purpose at all since everyone would just complain even more about why they weren't selected. This new tier process is here to reduce the usage of lone suppliers and the negativity surrounding it, so everyone has more chance to access the supplying system.

Without being transparent this new tier system is no different to suppliers as IFM still has the option to deny somebody from being moved up a tier and provide 0 reasons for doing so, the amount of factions that will have to reviewed will still be the same as now + the tier reviews so it will increase the workload. This system will not replace the suppliers and getting rid of suppliers will not make things better because you would have to wait a full year to get decent amount of guns/drugs and even then it's nowhere near what current suppliers are getting. So everyone will still keep applying for the supplier status so I don't see how will this reduce the workload except the opposite.

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Personally, I understand peoples' reservations about gatekeeping via time, but it's not an easy system to implement when months ago this was discussed specifically because the illegal community itself said they had no tangible and real motivators to becoming official or putting in the work. The problem resides in people seeing that there's now specific gains to have in advancing your community, and doing what they always have: create this weekend's passion project, hype up your usual 20-25 friends and have an unofficial group that grinds 30 pages on the forum in 5 days, and dies a week later. These zerg unofficial groups that come and vanish while handling mass numbers can easily topple well established factions/communities with very little to no effort, and then just scatter into the night until the next month-long unofficial group hypes everyone up again.

 

It's not an easy balance to achieve, and I think that we do need incentives for people not to give up on groups after two weeks.

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2 minutes ago, shiroq said:

Without being transparent this new tier system is no different to suppliers as IFM still has the option to deny somebody from being moved up a tier and provide 0 reasons for doing so, the amount of factions that will have to reviewed will still be the same as now + the tier reviews so it will increase the workload. This system will not replace the suppliers and getting rid of suppliers will not make things better because you would have to wait a full year to get decent amount of guns/drugs and even then it's nowhere near what current suppliers are getting. So everyone will still keep applying for the supplier status so I don't see how will this reduce the workload except the opposite.

  • A faction can only go up in tiers every 3 months, in the event of a denial from progressing up into the next tier, constructive feedback will be provided by IFM as well as a date that they may reapply. This date will be between 1 month to 3 months depending on the severity of the action.
    • Similarly to how a group applies for official, a faction can request to go up in tiers when they are eligible by time. When a faction meets the time requirements, this does not guarantee a progression through the tiers. This is primarily determined on the quality of roleplay the faction has provided, observations from admins and IFM along with report references if any.
    • If a faction is denied going up in the tiers, they will be given pointers to work on, this will be the constructive feedback as aforementioned. Is it the primary goal of IFM to ensure they can get to that point of being ready so they will be provided with support and oversight where required.
    • The review process may take up to 7 days maximum for a verdict, official feedback may need to be officially drafted up afterwards.

Please read the thread, IFM will not have the option to deny someone moving up a tier without providing reasons. This entire system brings more transparency so I'm not sure if you've misunderstood or skim-read. In addition to the above, tier reviews will obviously increase the workload. That's a given, however as stated many times, this will not be pushed until it can be handled and background systems have been streamlined. As Nervous said, this is to boost for factions, this is not circumventing the suppliers, this is not replacing the suppliers. Suppliers will still exist. People will still apply for supplier, yes. This is simply a bonus to people who are completely caught out, and the amounts are low because they're not to be relied on, but a backup for roleplay that cannot be NPC'd. People will still be required to have a realistic background as to where their narcotics and weapons are coming from, and this will be vetted. 

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Honestly giving 3 guns to an entire faction is hilarious.  The issue with people selling firearms to such small pools of people is because the quantity issued to suppliers is laughable.  Yes on LS-RP people stockpiled guns, but I'd argue a faction having stockpile access is a far smaller issue than the insane level of micromanagement that suppliers get.

 

I know a person with supplier status who through IC  means has every gun accounted for day one of their drops, meaning that they get to roleplay being a gun supplier for two days because factions aren't approaching other factions for small quantities.  What's the point in classing someone as a gun supplier if they have 5 knives and less than a gun per day to sell.  I understand the potential problems but I can say for certain - as someone who was an admin in LS-RP, it's far easier to deal with shitters DMing with guns than the crackpot level of moderation involved for suppliers to end up with 20 guns a month.   The entire reason I haven't played on the server for a month - and that I only saw this because someone sent it to me is because the level of self-imposed work staff members here give themselves is killing illegal roleplay and Honey is the only one that I've ever seen have anything close to a rational thought regarding illegal roleplay.   Even reading this I am certain it wasn't her idea to put 3 guns a month on that list.

 

Make it so suppliers can access actual warehouses themselves and self-moderate - if someone abuses it deal with that instead of building systems with more red tape than the DMV to get your hands on a pair of TEC-9's and make it so supplier applications are always open - but only long term factions can apply for them.  This will bring down the absurd prices of  50k a gun in some cases, and if people aren't hugely limited they will be more inclined to sell to more parties.   

 

I can't imagine how absurd it looks when people have these great stories for bringing in illegal firearms and they come back with 12 pistols and 5 knives because someone high up thinks there are about 20 guns on the street in America.

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1 hour ago, Skip said:

I'm not only 100% in agreement with the criticisms explored by @UTOPIA, I'm of the opinion that the entire system is fundamentally broken.

@Pádraig asks, conveniently,  "is using longevity the best measure of quality?" As we've seen time and time again, no, it is most definitely, objectively not. Some factions burn white hot for a few weeks—months, with any luck—reach their peak, then inevitably disintegrate in to the archives because someone left, someone got banned, innumerable, petty reasons. Others linger and groan like zombies for what feel like years, kept alive by ghoulish titles and applause the horse won long before it was beaten to death. 

There is very little that can be considered organic about the process by which factions live and breathe and die—we need to be focusing less on creating new factions so much as sustaining and enabling good factions. I would rather see two consistent stories intertwine over time than a dozen novel but insignificant snippets that disappear within a week. Once a faction exists long enough, it should become legacy, a part of the shared server lore, something to be built off of and spun in to something new because of actions and consequences that take place through roleplay, not forum bureaucracy and reports. There need to be less Wikipedia Syndicates and more Original Characters Do Not Steal. There needs to be an actual sense of progression and growth for these factions, an acknowledgement that what they are doing has an affect on the conscience of the server, not the economy. If a faction falls on its face, instead of creating it again and again BECAUSE it was already proposed, let's reintroduce it because it should be, not because it can.

No system of rewards or tiers or goodies will ever be a suitable replacement for putting competent, experienced people in charge of admitting and denying these organizations privileges as is appropriate. The biggest issue GTAW has and always has had is that we insist on automating processes that were never automatic and didn't work in the first place.

I'm not saying—nor is it prudent or realistic—to wipe the slate clean and start fresh. The hegemony that has existed the past two-plus years is already crumbling anyway, and we are at an important juncture: as power vacuums begin to form, I ask, do we reward the players and groups that take advantage of that on the ground, logged in, exploiting that dynamic as it exists, to their benefit and that of their friends, or reward people who consistently request properties, take advantage of reports, loopholes and LOAs, and make cool threads about their immortal character?

Do you know why I'm bored? Why I don't log in to the same character I've played since I got first got here? Because I can get guns and drugs in bulk, any time I want, but finding a knife or a fistfight is impossible. This is only going to make that worse. Staff is title, not an occupation. You are all dungeonmasters. Dungeonmasters are allowed to make decisions that contradict the rules. Why are we acting as if IFM is the federal government and we're filing our taxes?

Hit the nail on the head.

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2 minutes ago, Phased said:

Honestly giving 3 guns to an entire faction is hilarious.  The issue with people selling firearms to such small pools of people is because the quantity issued to suppliers is laughable.  Yes on LS-RP people stockpiled guns, but I'd argue a faction having stockpile access is a far smaller issue than the insane level of micromanagement that suppliers get.

 

I know a person with supplier status who through IC  means has every gun accounted for day one of their drops, meaning that they get to roleplay being a gun supplier for two days because factions aren't approaching other factions for small quantities.  What's the point in classing someone as a gun supplier if they have 5 knives and less than a gun per day to sell.  I understand the potential problems but I can say for certain - as someone who was an admin in LS-RP, it's far easier to deal with shitters DMing with guns than the crackpot level of moderation involved for suppliers to end up with 20 guns a month.   The entire reason I haven't played on the server for a month - and that I only saw this because someone sent it to me is because the level of self-imposed work staff members here give themselves is killing illegal roleplay and Honey is the only one that I've ever seen have anything close to a rational thought regarding illegal roleplay.   Even reading this I am certain it wasn't her idea to put 3 guns a month on that list.

 

Make it so suppliers can access actual warehouses themselves and self-moderate - if someone abuses it deal with that instead of building systems with more red tape than the DMV to get your hands on a pair of TEC-9's and make it so supplier applications are always open - but only long term factions can apply for them.  This will bring down the absurd prices of  50k a gun in some cases, and if people aren't hugely limited they will be more inclined to sell to more parties.   

 

I can't imagine how absurd it looks when people have these great stories for bringing in illegal firearms and they come back with 12 pistols and 5 knives because someone high up thinks there are about 20 guns on the street in America.

This through and through. 

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20 minutes ago, Phased said:

Honestly giving 3 guns to an entire faction is hilarious.  The issue with people selling firearms to such small pools of people is because the quantity issued to suppliers is laughable.  Yes on LS-RP people stockpiled guns, but I'd argue a faction having stockpile access is a far smaller issue than the insane level of micromanagement that suppliers get.

 

I know a person with supplier status who through IC  means has every gun accounted for day one of their drops, meaning that they get to roleplay being a gun supplier for two days because factions aren't approaching other factions for small quantities.  What's the point in classing someone as a gun supplier if they have 5 knives and less than a gun per day to sell.  I understand the potential problems but I can say for certain - as someone who was an admin in LS-RP, it's far easier to deal with shitters DMing with guns than the crackpot level of moderation involved for suppliers to end up with 20 guns a month.   The entire reason I haven't played on the server for a month - and that I only saw this because someone sent it to me is because the level of self-imposed work staff members here give themselves is killing illegal roleplay and Honey is the only one that I've ever seen have anything close to a rational thought regarding illegal roleplay.   Even reading this I am certain it wasn't her idea to put 3 guns a month on that list.

 

Make it so suppliers can access actual warehouses themselves and self-moderate - if someone abuses it deal with that instead of building systems with more red tape than the DMV to get your hands on a pair of TEC-9's and make it so supplier applications are always open - but only long term factions can apply for them.  This will bring down the absurd prices of  50k a gun in some cases, and if people aren't hugely limited they will be more inclined to sell to more parties.   

 

I can't imagine how absurd it looks when people have these great stories for bringing in illegal firearms and they come back with 12 pistols and 5 knives because someone high up thinks there are about 20 guns on the street in America.


u said everything i wanted to say

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29 minutes ago, Phased said:

Honestly giving 3 guns to an entire faction is hilarious.  The issue with people selling firearms to such small pools of people is because the quantity issued to suppliers is laughable.  Yes on LS-RP people stockpiled guns, but I'd argue a faction having stockpile access is a far smaller issue than the insane level of micromanagement that suppliers get.

 

I know a person with supplier status who through IC  means has every gun accounted for day one of their drops, meaning that they get to roleplay being a gun supplier for two days because factions aren't approaching other factions for small quantities.  What's the point in classing someone as a gun supplier if they have 5 knives and less than a gun per day to sell.  I understand the potential problems but I can say for certain - as someone who was an admin in LS-RP, it's far easier to deal with shitters DMing with guns than the crackpot level of moderation involved for suppliers to end up with 20 guns a month.   The entire reason I haven't played on the server for a month - and that I only saw this because someone sent it to me is because the level of self-imposed work staff members here give themselves is killing illegal roleplay and Honey is the only one that I've ever seen have anything close to a rational thought regarding illegal roleplay.   Even reading this I am certain it wasn't her idea to put 3 guns a month on that list.

 

Make it so suppliers can access actual warehouses themselves and self-moderate - if someone abuses it deal with that instead of building systems with more red tape than the DMV to get your hands on a pair of TEC-9's and make it so supplier applications are always open - but only long term factions can apply for them.  This will bring down the absurd prices of  50k a gun in some cases, and if people aren't hugely limited they will be more inclined to sell to more parties.   

 

I can't imagine how absurd it looks when people have these great stories for bringing in illegal firearms and they come back with 12 pistols and 5 knives because someone high up thinks there are about 20 guns on the street in America.

This dude gets it, I don't even have to say anything. The current system is broken, this proposed system is worse.

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