Standing Your Ground w/ the gun draw anims, when is it fair to do it?

[Boland]

W

15 hours ago, liq said:

Hi. I don't post topics often and I don't care too often either but this one seems prevalent depending on who you talk to. It's been a thing for a while and it's usually up to the administrator you get to deal with when you report someone or you make. 

 

In the typical armed/at gunpoint robbery scenario, when is standing your ground reasonable ans when isn't it? A wallet and some cash isn't worth dying over, but more often than not, someone with a gun (or a lot of guns mid trabsport, or whatever) may fight back if the opportunity comes around. When is it fair to draw back on someone? 

 

The context I'm asking for specifically directs to the gun draw animation. Since the animation now exists, it feels like it's up to the shooter to be alert and shoot when the anim does its thing, but that's considered unfair on others by some. It's the usual dilemma between some thinking that for as long as your character is being robbed, they're a deer in the headlights and should comply, and some thinking that for as long as you have the means (e.g. are armed), it's OK to stand your ground. 

 

That being said, I'm curious to see what the people think about pulling a gun in the typical situation where you're actively being robbed at a moment of opportunity (e.g. you may be in a car, the robber drops aim but not because they're typing OOC but because of actual emotes, etc.). Is it unfair on the robber or is it fair game given the gun draw anims denote enough intention and it's up to both parties to shoot or not shoot?

 

P.S. This has nothing to do with taking an L and carrying on with your day or with the typical Itsumi Takumi PF/CCW welding folks. It specifically has to do with people who role-play characters who'd have reason(s) to stand their ground and the means to as well, whatever those reasons may be. Not looking for the fairness in role-play crusaders but for whether or not the existence of the gun draw anims play a part in this.

 

/discuss. 

Ahem, if you feel your life is in danger, pull that thing and roll the dice, no matter what, if they're slow on the trigger, they're slow on life.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Boland

[pateuvasiliu]

29 minutes ago, Trupiano said:

Criminals are committing a crime, they are putting themselves already at immense risk to personal freedom by their actions.

Yes. They are putting themselves at immense risk. So why are civilians CKed but criminals aren't if they get shot during a robbery?

 

Thanks for proving my point.

 

29 minutes ago, Trupiano said:

It's NVFL and it warrants a CK. 

Just like robbing someone in the middle of the most busy street in the city. Just like robbing someone in a city where a lot of people own guns. I guess that warrants a CK too.

 

29 minutes ago, Trupiano said:

lets just jump straight to giving everyone a gun. 

That's a perfectly reasonable decision when the city has a death rate that makes Omaha Beach blush.

 

29 minutes ago, Trupiano said:

Pressure your politicians, get certain areas designated as "crime freezones" and create severe IC penalties for getting caught there. 

The  city's crime rate is an OOC issue not an IC one ( if I arrest someone today they'll do crime on an alt tomorrow. The number of crimes remains the same ).

 

Staff needs to crack down on ridiculous robberies and poor escalation.

Edited November 28, 2021 by pateuvasiliu

[Goonbag]

I think the whole “lack of fear” rule kind of needs a rework, especially regarding Character Kills. It’s kind of limiting in that it doesn’t allow for the fight or flight response/people’s stupidity. You can roleplay a lack of fear and not be a play to win douchebag about it. In fact, it makes for interesting roleplay scenarios, ESPECIALLY for LEO factions. You have ten guns trained on a dude and he raises his weapon? Blast the fuck out of him. It happens. What do YOU as a player gain from forcing them to CK over that random encounter? Move on. If it’s roleplayed poorly, THEN and ONLY THEN should you report them. I hate that we have to create rules just to respond to people’s shitty roleplay and thereby limiting people that aren’t subpar. This sort of stuff should just fall under administrator discretion as poor roleplay quality.

 

This is completely anecdotal but we had a faction member fight back during a robbery using emotes. Said player did so with the complete intention of “taking the L”, ended up being shot and roleplayed accordingly.
 

He was later reported to IFM and forced to CK from the event, even though he went into the encounter with the full intention of allowing the robbery to eventuate. This resulted in a faction leader’s character with over 9 months of development being CK’d for pretty much nothing. 
 

 

[Engelbert]

To me its rather simple, it depends on who is the victim and what are robbers after. They are after guns mostly, wallets and phones come in second place. As for the victim, if they are armed and caught lacking? Competitive shooter mentality may kick in, in a do or die manner. In the head of such person it probably looks like this "Okay I am losing my gun, again and I am annoyed by it so what? If I am gonna take the L, I am taking least one of them with me." Standing your ground only makes sense if you have the element of suprise and if it's logical stemming from said situation. Besides the mentality is completely wrong. In real life most of people would run away from area of a crime activity. Here people flock to such draw guns and escalate things.

It came to the point when flashing a gun is common during a brawl or night club bouncer situation, where normally two bouncers shoving some off would suffice. But not here, here you can expect those teens, that caused trouble to come back with more people and with guns cause 99% teens on the server are in a gang.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Engelbert

[Koko]

10 hours ago, Trupiano said:

Create a neighborhood watch, pressure the police to increase patrols in your areas, weird how we want to complain about "unrealistic robberies" in places like Rockford but we also don't want to permanently deploy officers there. Pressure your politicians, get certain areas designated as "crime freezones" and create severe IC penalties for getting caught there. 

 

The thing is that with our playerbase most of these aren't really feasible. Also you need people willing to RP a neighborhood watch. Why do that when 90% of civilians can just resort to RPing in an interior, leaving the streets empty? The level of crime is also just too high compared to the volume of LEOs to just leave units sitting around in specific neighborhoods that are empty 90% of the day and where criminals feed of opportunistic crime.

 

These solutions address the incidence of unrealistic robberies (tbh they're not really unrealistic because Staff made a ruling on how our streets are actually empty so then any notion of real world realism goes out the window) but put the entire burden of resolving the issue on everyone but the people initiating these robberies (not referring to the well-orchestrated ones, but rather the silly ones where a black SUV with four guys drifts in front of you in the middle of a main avenue like they were 1800s highwaymen in the middle of the forest).

 

The closest thing to a neighborhood watch was happening in Little Seoul/K-Town through the local community culture of keeping the neighborhood safe, and a lot of the time all it does is encourage even more low-effort crime because people will come do it for a laugh on a character you'll likely never see again since they know they'll have an audience. It also hasn't changed the fact that Koreatown sees daily firefights over whatever stupidly escalated beef and trolling/baiting because it's one of the more populated areas of the map. 

 

Also whenever the argument is brought to increase length of jail sentences, the counterargument is instantly brought up by tens of accounts defending that jail is somehow an OOC punishment, that it's not fun, and that it wouldn't be fair.

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate the sentiment you're trying to convey, at my core I agree with it completely and I wish that we had all these things that you ask for, since it'd definitely make sense and be a good experience. But I simply don't think that's something the server is going to rally together to do due to our population and general characteristics.

[Engelbert]

Whoever complains about jail sentences, is not here to roleplay. We don't get to choose what situations we could roleplay and what situations we could avoid.

[latenight]

7 hours ago, Engelbert said:

To me its rather simple, it depends on who is the victim and what are robbers after. They are after guns mostly, wallets and phones come in second place. As for the victim, if they are armed and caught lacking? Competitive shooter mentality may kick in, in a do or die manner. In the head of such person it probably looks like this "Okay I am losing my gun, again and I am annoyed by it so what? If I am gonna take the L, I am taking least one of them with me." Standing your ground only makes sense if you have the element of suprise and if it's logical stemming from said situation. Besides the mentality is completely wrong. In real life most of people would run away from area of a crime activity. Here people flock to such draw guns and escalate things.

It came to the point when flashing a gun is common during a brawl or night club bouncer situation, where normally two bouncers shoving some off would suffice. But not here, here you can expect those teens, that caused trouble to come back with more people and with guns cause 99% teens on the server are in a gang.

I can't agree more with you. This undescribable urge to make a shootout compilation with shitty drill songs has to come to an end. Nobody just "leaves the situation" at there. People get into a simple argument, one of them flashes a gun and tells the other one to fuck off, the losing party immediately starts to escalate the situation in order to get shot and cry about it on /b later, OR they start being incredibly salty and start saying shit like "oh okay big guy, okay you got a gun huh, okay I lost, okay you're so hungry to win, you can't even use your hands, fuck you, you're a bitch". This mentality is slowly draining the quality of the roleplay because people only want to RP the situations that they win. This is also because the winning party is PUSHING it way too far to stick it into the losing one. 

 

About the main topic of the thread, It's never, ever logical to stand your ground to an armed criminal. It's not like you're de-escalating a situation with a security guard or a soldier or a police officer whose first intention is to disarm and apprehend you instead of killing you. I think neither in real life or especially in roleplay, you should never stand your ground except for very few and extreme situations.

[Sniper]

As long as Big Drill is churning out the hits, there will forever be people seeking footage to add said hits to in a GTA server.

[Trupiano]

@Koko so there are a few points you bring up I've seen repeated and I wanna address. 

 

8 hours ago, Koko said:

The level of crime is also just too high compared to the volume of LEOs to just leave units sitting around in specific neighborhoods that are empty 90% of the day and where criminals feed of opportunistic crime.

 

I'm not saying park cops on empty streets to "fill them", but my mind immediately goes to the Rockford station. From what I understand, officially it closed because of some bugs but speaking with some friends in LEO factions a very large reason for closing it was also the fact that people found it boring compared to the excitement of being able to patrol the entire city or the calls they might get from say Mission Row. Having run a business in the area before, during and after there was a distinct difference in the amount of officers patrolling the area when the station was open. 

 

8 hours ago, Koko said:

not referring to the well-orchestrated ones, but rather the silly ones where a black SUV with four guys drifts in front of you in the middle of a main avenue like they were 1800s highwaymen in the middle of the forest

 

Another big point is, I'm 99% sure this isn't allowed and a lot of the times when I see people complaining bad robberies they are complaining about robberies that are clearly against the rules. Now to me, the first logical solution is to crack down on the quality of those robberies before we start jumping to change major aspects of the server. Meeting bad RP with more bad RP is not going to "solve" this issue either, unless (And this is the mentality I see a lot) solving the issue just means leveling the playing field without taking things like "What would my character actually do?" into account and leads to the aids situations of having club going cat girls turn into female John Wicks the minute they find themselves in a bad situation. 

 

8 hours ago, Koko said:

Also whenever the argument is brought to increase length of jail sentences, the counterargument is instantly brought up by tens of accounts defending that jail is somehow an OOC punishment, that it's not fun, and that it wouldn't be fair.

 

I mean my whole counter point to this has always been, you can't make someone RP in jail. It's always a suggestion by people who aren't lifers and who aren't involved with the jail scene. If my main is in jail for three IRL weeks, yeah I'm going to log onto an alt and play on the street for a good chunk of it because that's where like 75% of the fun shit on the server exists. Now, what I will say and goes back to what I said before about staff cracking down is if someone is getting arrested for robbery and then immediately logs onto an alt to commit another robbery, it should be something that's treated as chain robbing. It's something that should be punished. 

 

This discussion, in the same vein that always comes up with this topic is the nuclear option. It won't make the server better, it won't solve the issues people say it will, it'll only devolve the server into more violence, more killing and more bad RP. I'm all for addressing the issue, but frankly peoples reasonings for wanting this are pretty clear. No matter how many reasons I see brought up, it always boils down to "They get to shoot me, I should get to shoot them" with absolutely no consideration for if it makes sense for their character. That's an MMORPG mentality, not a heavy RP one.

[pateuvasiliu]

Is it worth it to get shot over your wallet? Probably not.

 

Is it worth it to murder someone over their wallet and probably get caught or shot up by other civilians and the police? Is it realistic to do all that on top of being a 15 year old kid? 

Probably not. This server's issue is that it punishes Scenario 1 but doesn't punish Scenario 2. If civilians get CKed for fighting back, then criminals should be CKed in the same situation, and if they do murder someone that 20 day joke of a sentence should be way longer.

Edited November 29, 2021 by pateuvasiliu