Penal Code Initial Thoughts (11/OCT/2017)

[ObZen]

Initial Thoughts?

 

 

FAQ:

1) I see there's a few state agencies listed here? Will they be around during launch and can I get in them?

 

ALL state agencies mentioned in the penal code will be NPCed during the first few weeks, if not longer (months). This does not include the courts - more to come on that for a later date. We are considering dissolving the 'city court' system and just having it all at the state level, which will provide streamlined service to the community.

 

2) bruh i aint doin a week for "X" wtf?

 

Sorry. (times are up for debate, please post below)

 

3) I gotta be imprisoned for life if I go over 25 hours in certain cases?

 

Yeah, the goal is to prevent insane crime sprees and for it to have a meaningful event for your character. Serious crimes should be taken, well, seriously. For your character, there should be significant reasons to commit crimes that would add up to that magnitude, and would warrant the risk of life in prison. Btw, you can still get parole.

 

 

Anyway, this isn't a finished document, but please feel free to ask questions and post below.

Edited October 12, 2017 by ObZen

[Torque]

I haven't read through the entire codes but some things that came to mind while reading some of it:

 

6. All persons are capable of committing crimes except those belonging to the following classes:

(1) Children under the age of 14 years, in the absence of clear proof that at the time of committing the act they knew its wrongfulness;

 

Would this not open the door to people roleplaying under-14 characters to avoid punishment? Doesn't it also contradict the OOC rule (I think there's an OOC rule somewhere) about roleplaying age and crimes? I think it'd be beneficial to at least clarify that the OOC rule takes precedent in these cases.

 

Quote

(c) A person punished for a felony upon a legal conviction in a court will be sentenced in weeks instead of days.

 

Wouldn't this deter people from roleplaying with the court?

 

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I think it's already a great document that covers a lot of things even from the start. Great job!

[ObZen]

I agree partially, Torque. Yes, if people try and abuse this by having an entire faction of 13 year olds committing crimes, but one could argue that the absence of clear proof that at the time of committing the act they knew its wrongfulness would apply more often than not to a teenager.

 

We can talk about changing it, but I think the focus is on that second part.

 

39 minutes ago, Adams said:

Wouldn't this deter people from roleplaying with the court?

 

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I think it's already a great document that covers a lot of things even from the start. Great job!

 

It's a prosecution by the court for crimes committed. Right now, most of the prosecutions will be done by the City Attorney and company for law enforcement related cases. The work put into casefiles and sentencing time empowering the courts are a deterrent to crime and a reason to be cautious and discreet when committing said crime.

 

I'm open to more discussion about all of this. Thanks for the reply.

[Fitzy]

1 hour ago, Adams said:

I haven't read through the entire codes but some things that came to mind while reading some of it:

 

 

Would this not open the door to people roleplaying under-14 characters to avoid punishment? Doesn't it also contradict the OOC rule (I think there's an OOC rule somewhere) about roleplaying age and crimes? I think it'd be beneficial to at least clarify that the OOC rule takes precedent in these cases.

 

 

Wouldn't this deter people from roleplaying with the court?

 

 

I can easily add a section about prosecuting/sentencing juveniles, but I would like to get a better sense of how the administration/players feel about that policy. It's also possible to just ignore age and assume that everyone is treated equally by the criminal justice system. 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Fitzy

[Kat]

Quote

64. Any person who carries concealed upon his or her person or within any vehicle that is under the person's control or direction any firearm, without a license to do so, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for 30 minutes.

 

My primary question is; do rifles and shotguns fall under this umbrella as well? Since, in all logic, they cannot be concealed as with any handgun. Or is this going the route of California state law and remain unstated, thus making the transport legal without a concealed carry permit? 

 

 

Quote

65. Any person who carries upon his or her person an exposed firearm in a public place in a city or a prohibited area of a state shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for 30 minutes.

 

By "city", do all of the outlying towns count in this segment, thus open carry limited to unincorporated areas of the state? 

 

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I do apologize if these answers are obvious; my state has very different laws (or lack thereof). I recognize the penal code structure, and am well aware the California law text itself is vague, which is why I'm asking for clarification. Great document, nonetheless. 

[Torque]

5 hours ago, Fitzy said:

I can easily add a section about prosecuting/sentencing juveniles, but I would like to get a better sense of how the administration/players feel about that policy. It's also possible to just ignore age and assume that everyone is treated equally by the criminal justice system. 

 

If we're trying it out I think the standard for "[...] clear proof that at the time of committing the act they knew its wrongfulness" needs to be reasonably set so that the prosecutors, considering the limitations of the game/script (which I don't know yet) won't have an unwinnable case just one the factor of age because if that were the case I can see this being abused fast and I don't think the server benefits in any way if some players commit "low-effort" crimes thinking they're safe from punishment just because they roleplay a character younger than 14.

 

I guess it doesn't hurt to see how players roleplay around the law though and as long as possible abuse gets shut down fast along with a reasonably set standard for refuting innocence by age I think it can work.

[Fitzy]

11 hours ago, Kat said:

 

My primary question is; do rifles and shotguns fall under this umbrella as well? Since, in all logic, they cannot be concealed as with any handgun. Or is this going the route of California state law and remain unstated, thus making the transport legal without a concealed carry permit? 

 

 

 

My interpretation is that shotguns and rifles can't be concealed in the manner that a handgun can. If a shotgun/rifle is simply transported in a vehicle, the carrier shouldn't be charged under that provision. 

 

11 hours ago, Kat said:

 

By "city", do all of the outlying towns count in this segment, thus open carry limited to unincorporated areas of the state? 

 

 

 

"City" should be interpreted as broadly as possible (i.e. small towns as well), in my opinion. This provision can be changed based on how players/administrators feel about allowing open carrying in less populated areas. 

 

[Flemwad]

10 hours ago, Adams said:

 

If we're trying it out I think the standard for "[...] clear proof that at the time of committing the act they knew its wrongfulness" needs to be reasonably set so that the prosecutors, considering the limitations of the game/script (which I don't know yet) won't have an unwinnable case just one the factor of age because if that were the case I can see this being abused fast and I don't think the server benefits in any way if some players commit "low-effort" crimes thinking they're safe from punishment just because they roleplay a character younger than 14.

 

I guess it doesn't hurt to see how players roleplay around the law though and as long as possible abuse gets shut down fast along with a reasonably set standard for refuting innocence by age I think it can work.

 

 

Pretty much sums up my thoughts.  Most of the people will be roleplaying younger anyways.  If anything, have the age recognized by the script when imprisoning juveniles so they can be separated from the adults in a different block.  DOC could be responsible for probation/parole with judicial oversight.   Just because they're young doesn't mean they get off with the crime, nor should they.  If permitting, I think they should be put on probation/parole more often through in-character means, but at the end of the day, if they commit the crime they should serve the time like everybody else in the server. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Flaw

[Kat]

4 hours ago, Fitzy said:

My interpretation is that shotguns and rifles can't be concealed in the manner that a handgun can. If a shotgun/rifle is simply transported in a vehicle, the carrier shouldn't be charged under that provision. 

 

That was my thought process as well. Hope this is the final interpretation.

 

4 hours ago, Fitzy said:

"City" should be interpreted as broadly as possible (i.e. small towns as well), in my opinion. This provision can be changed based on how players/administrators feel about allowing open carrying in less populated areas. 

 

I'm perfectly fine with the section being focused on, say, Paleto Bay and especially Los Santos itself. However, very small rural areas like Sandy Shores and Grapeseed shouldn't be under the same umbrella, in my opinion. Though I'd be understanding if there could be complications with such a law.