Revisit punishment severity

[mj2002]

 

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Please help avoid turning this discussion into arguing about "illegal vs legal", "mallrats", "erp", "too many robberies" or the other usual tropes.

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I'll keep this post brief, because I think it mostly speaks for itself. Ever since I joined this server, it has surprised me that punishments are relatively lax in this community. It appears as if this is a leftover from other related communities in earlier GTA versions and other related games, but I'm not entirely sure. I understand that a complete overhaul is not feasible.

 

What I do believe is possible is the following.

 

At present, there a standard by which punishments are awarded to players breaking rules. To my (outdated) knowledge, there is no written standard for punishment. This means that on average, punishments are handed out in a progressive manner, taking into account; existing player server record, time since last punishment, severity of infraction, attitude of player, impact on other players, and some other factors.

 

This is all fine, except I believe that punishments for severe infractions are too light. This results in reports concluding with ajails (sometimes even warnings) for events that either lead to very negative experiences for other players (deathmatching, poor escalation, to name a few) or events where players abused the situation for their own gain (script abuse, looting). 

 

This has been going on for a while now, and I am somewhat convinced that this is leading to a degraded experience for the entire community. There are too many second, third,  and fourth chances for players who, through their behavior and attitude, demonstrate that punishments like these are something they can simply endure for a little while, and then simply continue unchanged, perhaps slightly more careful to avoid getting in trouble again. Yes, I know, we are a community aiming to educate players when they make errors in judgment. I have heard this argument before, I have made this argument myself, and I continue to believe that this is an excellent principle that the community as a whole should maintain. However, I believe that the severity of punishment at present, is too low. There is a balance, and it needs to go further into one direction.

 

This is not just an appeal to the community, or server management, but also to individual administrators. You are in a position to make improvements to this community. When you hand down a punishment, please consider if it is the right punishment, and if the player being punished is likely to change their behavior because of it. It is very difficult to quantify what is good for the community at large, over a longer time span.

 

But please keep those in mind that aren't habitual rule breakers, those who you don't often hear from (not me), and who just want to roleplay, but keep getting subjected to negative experiences caused by players who are here only for their own self interest and entertainment, and aren't really interested in creating a positive experience for everyone. Often, these events go unreported, and if they are reported, many punished roleplayers are back roaming around after 15 or 30 minutes of going AFK to serve out their ajails. This creates a negative environment, where many players simply have the idea that a substantial amount of players around them are probably going to cause a negative experience. It makes it less fun to be around here.

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by mj2002

[BaBulie]

Having to retake a much more difficult server application after getting severely punished? Thoughts?

 

I know it'll create even more admin work, unless it is automated.

[Engelbert]

I think the severity should be higher. I broke rules only once and was banned for 14 days for refusing to rp a robbery and deathmatching.

[-MCV-]

Right now "Heavy Role-play server" is an overstatement. It needs to punish more, warn less. People are almost always sorry they got caught not that they've made a mistake.

[Dakimakura]

After almost 3 years playing on the server with my record clean and I received a warning for a trifle, other players do worse things and leave with a pat on the back.

[Law]

In my opinion, it should be the job of a senior admin (along side management and other experienced staff members) to come up with internal guides that outline escalation and severity of bans.

 

In previous years, people who were transferring assets money would get a 60 day to permanent ban. This was because it was a severe offence that would mess with the economy and give the player a financial advantage.
 

As of recently, asset transferring guns and abusing bugs to do so will only land you 3 hours to 3 days. Not to throw the admin under a bus, but this example can likely be tracked back if there’s a discord channel for bans.

So yes, as enjoyable as it can be to play GTAW, I too feel like the leniency has slowly degraded the quality of the server.

 

[Mitch]

please stop handling reports with child gloves and giving out petty punishments that have zero impact, just go back to the old days of harsh punishments, we need 14 day temp bans again, not 15 minutes

[Sniper]

"There is a balance, and it needs to go further into one direction."

 

You sound like a fucking Sith Lord.

 

0/10 needs more analysing and addressing of root causes and less arbitrary punishment

[lux]

Ajails do nothing. They're seen as a way for a person to reflect on their actions and re-read the rules. All the person is doing is sitting there for 15-45 minutes watching Youtube on the other screen before jumping back in the game and continuing on with what they were doing previously. It's barely a punishment. An ajail should be met with a re-application if it's considered a 'severe' rule-break but unworthy of a ban/temp ban.

 

Ajails should be turned into temp bans. A day, two days, three days - something that keeps a person out of the game for them to actually understand that their actions have consequences. Right now, there's no fear of doing something dumb or unrealistic because an ajail means very little to most people.

To people that actually want to apply for things - houses, businesses, factions - an ajail on your record could stop that, sure. But lets face it, the majority of player reports revolve around characters that aren't looking to apply for such things. I'm not taking a jab at illegal characters or LEOs (which are what the majority of the reports are), just stating how it is. A gangbanger character doesn't neccesserily need to apply for a business nor does a cop.

 

There is a big difference between two years ago to today. Player count is 800+ active and that's why I agree that there needs to be a more severe punishment structure in place. In a smaller community, you can afford to be more lenient as it's more of a tight knit thing. But now too many people are getting away with dumb shit and are handled with kids gloves rather than actually paying the consequences for essentially ruining another persons enjoyment on GTA:W.

 

Harsher punishments weed out those who don't give a shit in comparison to those who actually care about the community, development and roleplay. You could argue that we wouldn't have 800+ active player count if there was harsher punishments but the community would be much more enjoyable than it's current state. 

 

On my average day on GTA:W, I often question how so many people passed the application when interacting with them.
 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by lux

[Koko]

Two weeks of back and forth and a long analysis of the specifics and contextualization of an RP situation to issue a 15 min ajail to the offending party honestly seems like a complete waste of an admin's time and efforts, as well as the reporting and reported parties. The burden of proof is so heavy on the reporting side in keeping video evidence (running and maintaining the software for it at all times), logs, context and writing a whole report, that the idea of wasting your time for someone to just sit out for half an hour watching Youtube and badmouthing the person who reported them while trying to find dirt on them as revenge is not particularly conducive to reporting misconduct.

 

It's then ridiculous to see that names that consistently appear in the Reports forum have trained themselves to counter-argue reports effectively (some people have whole formats for this) are all usually met with a punishment that doesn't even begin to compare with the amount of time everyone involved has invested in the process. This seems quite frankly, useless, which is why the constant pleas for "report it when you see it" fall flat. Reports are a waste of time for everyone involved unless they're a weaponized tool to recover lost assets or to fight weird OOC beefs over common courtesy rulebreaks that seem a petty way to resolve a personal dispute that goes beyond the server.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Koko