Finding balance when roleplaying characters.

[DasFroggy]

6 minutes ago, Trupiano said:

We try to share our experiences and have a sensible conversation about the issue

 

Yet you lead with...

 

56 minutes ago, Trupiano said:

You can't convince me that crime and criminal portrayal is that bad

 

Tell me again about how you want to have a sensible conversation.

[Trupiano]

Just now, DasFroggy said:

 

Yet you lead with...

 

 

Tell me again about how you want to have a sensible conversation.

 

My experience is that it is definitely not as bad as you try to portray it. This experience is in line with many players both in the civilian and criminal sides of the server, LEO's and just other people I've noticed on the forums. You can snip as many of my comments out context as you want. Your not proving some point because there's literally no point to be made, you just sound like an irrational crazy person replying like this.

 

I, along side literally every Illegal RPer who has posted on these threads admits that there is are issues within the community when it comes to crime. The fact that we do not see the situation as as dire or agree with some of your heavy handed suggestions for fixing it DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE AGAINST SOLUTIONS.

 

We want SENSIBLE solutions that won't entirely fuck over our RP, just because they don't align with yours doesn't make them disingenuous or bad. 

[Mistery14]

1 hour ago, DasFroggy said:

 

Yet you lead with...

 

 

Tell me again about how you want to have a sensible conversation.

 

To be rather honest with you, I personally don't see what's the problem in what they said.  They're providing a cohesive and sensible point to the thread, they aren't being hostile, they're stating what they've seen with their own eyes. 

 

If what I'll say matters any, I think all factions and types of roleplay have their own individual problems, it's undeniable, stating them isn't an attack, it's merely bringing it up on a thread that adresses the issue in a way or another.

 

What is your take on this? I'd much prefer to hear about your point of view than this sort of stuff, in all honesty.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Mistery14

[DasFroggy]

41 minutes ago, Mistery14 said:

I personally don't see what's the problem in what they said.

 

It's primarily an example of the sort of contradictory responses that are received when discussing the problems, and in that, he actually pointed out a major contributor to the problems that have necessitated the impending rule changes - the responsible parties can't be convinced that there's a problem. It's not that there isn't a problem, it's that there is effectively no interest in knowing about the problem, or fixing it. 

 

41 minutes ago, Mistery14 said:

If what I'll say matters any

 

It does.

 

41 minutes ago, Mistery14 said:

I think all factions and types of roleplay have their own individual problems, it's undeniable, stating them isn't an attack, it's merely bringing it up on a thread that adresses the issue in a way or another.

 

Unfortunately, that's a pretty one-sided belief. If someone says "Civilians are Mallrats that only go to clubs and drive expensive cars" I'll agree with them and adjust my roleplay to try and encourage activities outside of the 'mallrat' trend, with obviously miniscule results because I'm only one person. Go to the other end of the spectrum and say "Here's factual numbers from the administration that shows murders are through the roof" and I'll agree and adjust my criminal roleplay to get drowned out by a torrent of others saying that I (and god only knows how many more with criminal ties that are grouped in for daring to disagree with the juggernaut that is the criminal community) have no idea what is really happening, that the numbers from the administrators are either lies or misunderstood because of some technicality, and that nothing should change.

 

Except that things need to change, because regardless of how much people say there can't possibly be a problem, there is absolutely a problem.

 

We faced an uncertainty in the future of the server when a criticism of garage activity was, after some digging, discovered to be the result of the trucking industry no longer being able to safely operate, as truckers were (and still are) being targeted, to the point that it was causing instability in the (very much advertised server feature of) logistics and store supply. Garages were just one business amidst many that were impacted with a very tangible dent in inventory, necessitating a quick economy fix to make trucks a less appealing target for robberies. Unsurprisingly, it didn't. 

 

The newest spillover is now EMS, in which many of the first responders are having to respond to gunshot wound calls to the point that it is drowning out less severe calls for trouble breathing or sprained ankles. It's leading to burnout, and now we have people not getting any response at all when they absolutely need treatment. Police are finding themselves transporting the dying in police cars to reach the hospital, because ambulances are either unwilling or unavailable to handle the matter.

 

That's two industries so far that have taken a hit from the recently massive crime wave, but that probably isn't the worst part. The worst part is that when any of this is mentioned, the responses are unsurprisingly and literally "I feel sorry for you. It's tragic that you have nothing better to do with your life besides track all these numbers for a video game. Stop wasting your life." and "Don't care, didn't ask. Also, I have an art degree."

 

41 minutes ago, Mistery14 said:

I'd much prefer to hear about your point of view than this sort of stuff, in all honesty.

 

Before GTAW, I was involved in a Judge Dredd roleplay community, in which the setting was essentially Judge Dredd. We diversified the setting by having a mix of civilians, Judges, cannies (cannibals), raiders, common thugs... It was pretty much exactly what it said on the tin, GTAW edition. I joined about five years into the community's lifetime, and learned real fast that the Judges were not nice people. I didn't understand why until I made an effort to join the Judges, to counterbalance the quiet resistance movement I was spinning up in the undercity.

 

It was eye opening, to find that Judges actually had massive OOC restrictions on how they could operate. They couldn't patrol alone, they couldn't leave the megacity walls, they couldn't initiate combat first, they couldn't be antagonistic, they couldn't be corrupt, they couldn't follow cannies or raiders if they went outside the walls... It was ridiculous just how little the Judges could do in comparison to what they were in the lore. Still, I persevered in the community, climbed the ranks, and even became a member of the community staff. 

 

Not a day went by without criticism about how we couldn't keep the megacity safe, and I don't mean like what you'd expect in-character. It was an OOC choir, day in and day out, about how average citizens were attacked by cannies and raiders IN ADDITION TO the common street thugs and organized crime we already had inside the city. Problem was, we couldn't do a goddamn thing about it. We couldn't go out of the walls and wipe out the camps, because that was against the rules. We couldn't field enough patrols, because that would require lone patrols, which was against the rules. We tried everything, from negotiating with staff to have the walls actually mean something, to forming secret off-grid Judges to go out in sweeps in the name of identifying and neutralizing the canny and raider encampments off the books. We even asked nicely, "Please, just give us some heads up or something".

 

It wasn't just the cannies or the raiders that pitched in against any measure, it was the street thugs and the organized crime inside the walls that said again, and again, and again, that we were just trying to end all criminal roleplay, and that these requests were unreasonable. 

 

After a couple of years, the civilian population dried up. We didn't have any logistics roleplay, but the people who tried to make it happen simply left the community when they realized that they were the only ones going outside. After that, the Judges began to lose staff, until the community was eventually closed entirely. Two years of trying to get things to change, and the people causing the problems didn't budge even the slightest bit. Their responses were word for word "we do not see the situation as as dire or agree with some of your heavy handed suggestions for fixing it" with literally no cooperation, right down to insisting even after the community had closed, that they had done nothing wrong and that it was squarely the fault of the judges for not having better solutions.

 

Which is pretty funny now that I think about it, because I was the only one in that dumpster fire that tried changing things from the criminal side. I'm trying to do that here too, and I've had some success with my criminal character, but I'm not sure I can fix things fast enough on my own before things really start to break around here. My take on this isn't that I'm just some civvie that's tired of getting robbed. My take is that I've seen this before. The only difference is the theme, and the timetable, the latter of which we've managed to compress from years, into months.

Edited August 22, 2021 by DasFroggy

[Trupiano]

1 hour ago, Mistery14 said:

 

Thing is, as you said, it's a game and you can't expect people to behave like you'd like to, not as a server owner, not as an admin, not as a regular player, or donator. Hell, even a small group of ten people roleplaying together are going to come across their own problems. No amount of rules nor guidelines will change that. 

 

The way I look at it, when we all applied to this server we accepted the rules of it. There are plenty of things which I could say drive me nuts about the civilians population on this server. But I step back and remember that this is a video game and what they are doing probably doesn't break any rules. When things get out of hand, we can have sensible conversations about updating those rules. But we have to take into account that someone already on the server will be effected by these changes and its important to identify who that is before enacting what could be server damaging rule changes. 

 

The best example that's not crime related (Which obviously anything regarding crime becomes a fight on theses forums) is ERP. I personally believe that ERP is cringy, unnecessary and is used by players to fulfill IRL sexual fantasies. There are players who do that and banning ERP or heavily restricting it would definitely get them off the server and in my opinion increase quality overall, this again is my personal opinion on the subject. However, while this change might be seen as a positive to me since I don't ERP. There are way more people who do ERP while maintaining proper characters who would be effected negatively. Even though they weren't the ones doing anything wrong.

 

That's what's happening to crime right now on the server and all people like me are trying to do is call that out. I think motorbike robbery duo's should be permanently banned on the spot. Start punishing players for playing 24/7 criminal masterminds, get that low effort shit out of here. But I will always be 100% against suggestions that would just broadly crack down on the Illegal Community. Things like super long jail sentences or disregarding characters with multiple murders as being too unrealistic. Yeah, they'll get rid of the 'issue' but they'll also kill the enjoyment for me and hundreds of other players. 

 

It would be about as fair to us as it would be to civilians if we banned ERP outright simply because of 50 or so bad apples.

 

 

[Trupiano]

2 hours ago, DasFroggy said:

he actually pointed out a major contributor to the problems that have necessitated the impending rule changes - the responsible parties can't be convinced that there's a problem.

 

I literally said I admit there is a problem, why do you continue to ignore my full argument?

 

4 hours ago, Trupiano said:

I, along side literally every Illegal RPer who has posted on these threads admits that there is are issues within the community when it comes to crime. The fact that we do not see the situation as as dire or agree with some of your heavy handed suggestions for fixing it DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE AGAINST SOLUTIONS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Trupiano

[Stanty]

8 hours ago, eTaylor said:

Most people have that middle ground. Most people also don’t care about categories, nor should they. They just roleplay their character and that’s it. It’s a very small section of the community that has these conflated arguments about illegal/legal division. 

 

This. Unnecessarily categorizing and limiting your character is the worst thing you can do to your imagination and freedom of development.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Stanty

[Koko]

Characters 100% dedicated to crime are generally lackluster.

 

Characters 100% dedicated to socializing in clubs are generally lackluster.

 

Could just be boiled down to: "one dimensional characters are lackluster".

 

At the end of the day, your Eastern European organized crime goon also has neighbors and goes to buy groceries, interacts with strangers who aren't his people in daily interactions, and is allowed a life where he doesn't have to constantly huff like a bulldog at people. In the same way, your clubgoing supermodel should also not be nursing a liver the size of Manhattan by the age of 22 by going out clubbing every night without having an actual job to drive to in her sports car.

 

Everyone could take good value out of sitting down for a minute during RP downtime and thinking how their character would go about their day and actually *roleplaying* it, even if it's you by yourself. You never know who you'll find on the way, and it makes characters come alive.

[DLimit]

On 8/22/2021 at 9:41 PM, Koko said:

Characters 100% dedicated to crime are generally lackluster.

 

Characters 100% dedicated to socializing in clubs are generally lackluster.

 

Could just be boiled down to: "one dimensional characters are lackluster".

 

At the end of the day, your Eastern European organized crime goon also has neighbors and goes to buy groceries, interacts with strangers who aren't his people in daily interactions, and is allowed a life where he doesn't have to constantly huff like a bulldog at people. In the same way, your clubgoing supermodel should also not be nursing a liver the size of Manhattan by the age of 22 by going out clubbing every night without having an actual job to drive to in her sports car.

 

Everyone could take good value out of sitting down for a minute during RP downtime and thinking how their character would go about their day and actually *roleplaying* it, even if it's you by yourself. You never know who you'll find on the way, and it makes characters come alive.

Always good to diversify the R.P. of each character beyond their "role". After all, we're RPing as human beings. 100% agree.

[Engelbert]

The dividing line is not so scary as people make it to be. It is there simply because people have different opinions on different situations. For instance, what's the chance of a same person to be a victim of any crime several times per month? Irl, not so high, in here? Pretty high. That is the main issue, the numbers of real life statistics and server statistics, do match to an extent. The dividing line was set by players who do not care about portrayal and are here only to rack up some virtual scores, how else would we explain the "BF400 robbing duos" or random cars cutting you off on the highway just to take few bucks cash, you may or may not have. These people do not invest anything into their character's development and while there are many, many good criminal roleplayers, human brain only tends to remember the bad things, pushing the good ones aside.

Which basically means, a couple of badly executed robberies will overshadow dozens of good ones.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Engelbert