Thoughts on the Senate?

[Lurleen]

2 minutes ago, eTaylor said:

This theory has been debunked repeatedly over the course of a decade across multiple GTA (urban) roleplay communities. For reference, use the search function. Interesting history all around. 

My point is, that if the senate does anything to drastically reduce crime, lets say longer sentences, CCTV and police everywhere, it'd ruin the ooc fun of those wanting to RP criminal activities. Admin team doesnt wan't that, thus senate can't do much to solve IC city issues.

[eTaylor]

1 minute ago, Lurleen said:

My point is, that if the senate does anything to drastically reduce crime, lets say longer sentences, CCTV and police everywhere, it'd ruin the ooc fun of those wanting to RP criminal activities. Admin team doesnt wan't that, thus senate can't do much to solve IC city issues.

Well that’d go against the point of the senate wouldn’t it? 

[mj2002]

56 minutes ago, Lurleen said:

My point is, that if the senate does anything to drastically reduce crime, lets say longer sentences, CCTV and police everywhere, it'd ruin the ooc fun of those wanting to RP criminal activities. 

 

It ruins activities of those who want to commit crimes unrealistically out in the open.

[Trupiano]

22 minutes ago, mj2002 said:

 

It ruins activities of those who want to commit crimes unrealistically out in the open.

 

What does this even mean? What? Is all crime conducted in the shadows by unseen and unnoticed criminal masterminds?

 

Just because LFM blocks certain bills that threatens the playstyle of hundred of players doesn't  mean they do it out of bias or malicious. They'd the exact same if there was a bill purposed that would target any set of players too harshly. This is a video game after all and we'll all hear to enjoy it. LFM's just ensuring that it stays that way.

 

The lack of sensibility and the subtle jabs at both staff and Illegal RPers anytime this subject comes up is simply childish. 

[eTaylor]

People forget GTA W and the senate aren’t suppose to be a utopian society. Just because we could hypothetically solve all societal problems doesn't mean we should. We’re here to play in a moderately accurate representation of our society, flaws included. 

[UTOPIA]

Reading a lot of bizarre takes on illegal roleplay & the 'non-existent' drug market on this thread. What I believe people fail to understand from the legal roleplay side is that illegal role-players are all not one in the same, a lot of illegal role player's characters have great longevity and development- easily more development than a vast majority of legal role-players and all while partaking in far more dangerous environments.

 

I understand that legal role-players assume that all of us are the same black character pulling up on BF400s to stick them up, but a lot of us are just as passive as they are- our characters run businesses, build communities and create meaningful impacts on characters within the communities we forge. This applies to those who roleplay within the scopes of both organized crime and gang roleplay.

 

The issue we all have with the senate is that a vast majority of senators are alt characters who do not live their lives in-game and simply post a "yeah" with no debate. Senators who do not roleplay in game are not bound to the same consequences that they would impose with a simple 'yes' or 'no'- there is no way for us to reach those characters, to attempt to influence those characters, or for that matter to engage with any roleplay at all with those characters! I am not speaking against all senators, I know there are a few senators who roleplay frequently on their characters, but we all know this is the reality of the senate as it currently stands.

[mj2002]

45 minutes ago, Trupiano said:

 

What does this even mean? What? Is all crime conducted in the shadows by unseen and unnoticed criminal masterminds?

 

Just because LFM blocks certain bills that threatens the playstyle of hundred of players doesn't  mean they do it out of bias or malicious. They'd the exact same if there was a bill purposed that would target any set of players too harshly. This is a video game after all and we'll all hear to enjoy it. LFM's just ensuring that it stays that way.

 

The lack of sensibility and the subtle jabs at both staff and Illegal RPers anytime this subject comes up is simply childish. 

 

It means that players should take consequences into consideration when performing actions on behalf of their characters. Actions have consequences. Is your character going to wave their gun around for a bad reason, then they should be prepared to face consequences. These are currently missing. 

[Trupiano]

14 minutes ago, mj2002 said:

 

It means that players should take consequences into consideration when performing actions on behalf of their characters. Actions have consequences. Is your character going to wave their gun around for a bad reason, then they should be prepared to face consequences. These are currently missing. 

 

Just because you may disagree with someone's choices doesn't mean they aren't taking consequences into consideration. This is a video game after all and we have the liberty to make the wrong choice. While there's plenty of room to have a sensible discussion about people who abuse the current system for pure personal enjoyment over RP, any OOC solutions that comes from that discussion should target those players directly and not criminal characters as a whole. Otherwise, as I and hundreds of others have pointed out not only will it not work, it'll make the situation worse.

 

As it pertains to the senate, those solutions must make IC sense. There is not going to be some massive IC crime bill that addresses everyones OOC issues because well that would be cancerous. However as I've stated before on this thread, if the IC issue is gun crime there are solutions that can be adopted that target arms trafficking specifically. By increasing the sentencing minimums for that type of charge, law enforcement can pick apart the gun trade by putting the players facilitating it away for longer times. 

 

 

 

[Alyssa McCarthy]

1 hour ago, Trupiano said:

 

Just because you may disagree with someone's choices doesn't mean they aren't taking consequences into consideration. This is a video game after all and we have the liberty to make the wrong choice. While there's plenty of room to have a sensible discussion about people who abuse the current system for pure personal enjoyment over RP, any OOC solutions that comes from that discussion should target those players directly and not criminal characters as a whole. Otherwise, as I and hundreds of others have pointed out not only will it not work, it'll make the situation worse.

 

As it pertains to the senate, those solutions must make IC sense. There is not going to be some massive IC crime bill that addresses everyones OOC issues because well that would be cancerous. However as I've stated before on this thread, if the IC issue is gun crime there are solutions that can be adopted that target arms trafficking specifically. By increasing the sentencing minimums for that type of charge, law enforcement can pick apart the gun trade by putting the players facilitating it away for longer times. 

 

 

 

 

On a personal note - I've been mugged twice in 12+ months, so I really don't perceive crime a huge issue. Maybe I've been lucky, maybe I've played smart, idk.

That said from a principle point of view, IC actions should have IC consequences.

What I mean by this is that you seem to put a lot of stress on player fun being an OOC justifiable reason to not react with realistic consequences on a heavy roleplay server.

At least consider that an equal argument that opposes your view is an opposite one held by the victim: i.e. A victim of said criminal activity may believe that an increased sentence is justifiable because it will increase their fun, because there assailant is stuck behind bars for a longer period of time and not waving a gun in their faces.

Both views (depending on which side you sit), are perfectly legitimate, however this is not an OOC issue, it is an IC one.

RP, and the consequences there of, should be allowed to evolve IC, unhindered by admin intervention (IFM or LFM). The only time FM should intervene is if the senate are trying to pass a law that is entirely unrealistic for a state based on California to make - not because one side cried louder than the other.

Just like the suggestions you made, increasing punitive consequences of crime is a perfectly IC and legitimate way of handling it.

Actions should have consequences and the consequence of a much increased crime rate is that laws be enacted to make crime more difficult and/or its penalties for doing so, far harsher.

Either rampant crime is an IC issue that should be handled IC or it's an OOC one, in which case, OOC rules should be enforced to stop it.

Personally, I'd rather the community try to exhaust options ICly.

At least then the players can hold up their hands and say 'at least we tried, Nervous please save us' rather than just raising the OOC alarmism immediately.
 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Alyssa McCarthy

[Trupiano]

1 hour ago, Alyssa McCarthy said:

At least consider that an equal argument that opposes your view is an opposite one held by the victim: i.e. A victim of said criminal activity may believe that an increased sentence is justifiable because it will increase their fun, because there assailant is stuck behind bars for a longer period of time and not waving a gun in their faces.

Both views (depending on which side you sit), are perfectly legitimate, however this is not an OOC issue, it is an IC one.

 

I accept that and it's a correct argument, but it's also an incredibly slippery slope. The reason I speak so adamantly on the topic is because, from the way I and many others see it. The overall belief of some people on the other side boils down to "Criminals are garbage, the server would be better without them". They can't say the quiet part out loud, so instead they promote fixes that would completely ruin the experiences of hundreds of players, including myself and I'm not even doing anything wrong.

 

1 hour ago, Alyssa McCarthy said:

RP, and the consequences there of, should be allowed to evolve IC, unhindered by admin intervention (IFM or LFM). The only time FM should intervene is if the senate are trying to pass a law that is entirely unrealistic for a state based on California to make - not because one side cried louder than the other.

 

Look, I'm all for a senate that evolves IC but there needs to be checks and balances, certain things like legalizing weed sounds like a great idea but trust me it would fuck over a lot of people. I was one of the main weed growers for a few months and trust me, the market would not sustain itself. There will always be subjects and things that are off limits from change on this server. It's not about catering to a specific side, it's about keeping the game enjoyable for the majority. 

 

1 hour ago, Alyssa McCarthy said:

Just like the suggestions you made, increasing punitive consequences of crime is a perfectly IC and legitimate way of handling it.

Actions should have consequences and the consequence of a much increased crime rate is that laws be enacted to make crime more difficult and/or its penalties for doing so, far harsher.

 

I want to clarify, I'm for target changes to the punitive consequences. Messing with the amount of time people spend in prison will always be a part OOC/IC process. In my suggestion, I am for increasing the punitive consequences for arms trafficking because I know, the characters who could be investigated and charged with it are likely characters/players who can handle longer stints of development in prison. I also know that the vast majority of suppliers and major faction are for RICO investigations, as long as they are fair. 

 

But if we're talking increasing punitive consequences across the board for say all violent crimes? It'll never work because the people who are really causing the most problems? It won't put them in jail, it'll just put one of their characters in jail. They'll simply continue fucking with people on the street with alts.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Trupiano