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Thoughts on the Senate?


Anders

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On 9/23/2021 at 1:09 AM, bartman said:

Can LFM level with us on how much influence they have over bills? Is LFM deciding certain bills need to pass and other ones not? Because I'm getting that impression from conversations with senators. If LFM truly has this much influence I feel like it defeats the point of even having a senate? Let alone running lobbying organizations i.e our firearms lobby

 

Idk who the handler is now so posting it here. @cxn

That is very true. My friend won a seat in the senate through the Democrats ranks. Weeks later, he told me that the senate is only there for a structural role and suggestive, rather than being a sovereign entity. He is not part of it anymore as he lost interest, but I think it still remains so. The decision ultimately is done from the server staff.

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19 minutes ago, Daquan Kingston said:

That is very true. My friend won a seat in the senate through the Democrats ranks. Weeks later, he told me that the senate is only there for a structural role and suggestive, rather than being a sovereign entity. He is not part of it anymore as he lost interest, but I think it still remains so. The decision ultimately is done from the server staff.

 

Everyone who is actively involved and has some common sense knows this from the start. There was never a moment where small groups of players could wield supreme power over IC laws. The reasons for this setup are beyond obvious. Laws like these can make or break the environment for all or large groups of players on the server.

 

 @cxn words it very nicely and unconfrontationally, but the last word is always with server management and LFM. This doesn't mean every single law has to pass through them, but if something threatens to upset an important system, then they can step in to prevent these changes (weed legalization for example), or force something through if it is immediately required (SAPR related stuff).

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4 hours ago, cxn said:

Hey @bartman,

I hope you're fine, I wanted to clarify your questions. The senate is responsible to write the bills and then to vote after the writing/creating process is done. LFM acts as the governor (Shanks, as the head of FM), who can either sign the bill as it is or veto it. If a bill comes across a veto, it needs to be amended after the changes have been amended the bill can be resubmitted. LFM is not arbitrarily deciding whether a bill needs to pass and other ones not, we simply look over them as the ''governor'' and evaluate if the bill needs some improvement or some amendments so there won't be any issues. 

If you would like to discuss anything further, feel free to send me a direct message! 🙂 

 

I was directly told by multiple senators LFM "locked in" the recent SHAFT vote and stated it has to pass. Is this factual?

If there's a certain list of "no gos" that LFM will intervene to force a certain IC result, can we at least get a published list of these 'lines' so those of us trying to actually do political RP know where to tread and where not? Otherwise all you face is continued disinterest in political RP when it's clear right now IC lobbying/politics has little real effect.

 

It has led to a lot of confusion when HAD stated in this very thread:

firefox_s0HUabrO8v.png

 

Amending the SHAFT act in any way that doesn't change the script seems to be allowable under this interpretation, yet I'm told from multiple sources LFM 'decided' the recent vote - I understand there's a new LFM now, so can we get a official new opinion on this?

 

 

2 hours ago, mj2002 said:

 

Everyone who is actively involved and has some common sense knows this from the start. There was never a moment where small groups of players could wield supreme power over IC laws. The reasons for this setup are beyond obvious. Laws like these can make or break the environment for all or large groups of players on the server.

 

 @cxn words it very nicely and unconfrontationally, but the last word is always with server management and LFM. This doesn't mean every single law has to pass through them, but if something threatens to upset an important system, then they can step in to prevent these changes (weed legalization for example), or force something through if it is immediately required (SAPR related stuff).

 

I never got this. LFM are "a small group of players" just as much as any player controlled body. The difference is one group is (hopefully - elections have been stalled for months now for 'reasons') chosen by the playerbase, and one in a administrative process that as far as I'm aware isn't public at all. Administrators are also players who can also make mistakes.

 

I still think the Senate was set up to fail in this regard; when it's public knowledge that LFM may intervene and kill any real productive ideas it kills any idea to contribute which is why you see them arguing over bathroom gender roles and anything so minute LFM won't care. Then the playerbase loses all interest because it doesn't actually affect them.

 

A simple public list of "These are topics the senate can not control without LFM approval/intervention" would go a long way towards helping that, instead of everyone flying blind on when LFM can/will intervene.

Edited by bartman
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3 hours ago, bartman said:

I still think the Senate was set up to fail in this regard; when it's public knowledge that LFM may intervene and kill any real productive ideas it kills any idea to contribute which is why you see them arguing over bathroom gender roles and anything so minute LFM won't care. Then the playerbase loses all interest because it doesn't actually affect them.

 

A simple public list of "These are topics the senate can not control without LFM approval/intervention" would go a long way towards helping that, instead of everyone flying blind on when LFM can/will intervene.

 

In defense of LFM, its aim is not to kill any real productive ideas. The aim is to "kill" ideas that threaten important systems. Legalizing weed would do this, although I don't really agree with that specific decision. If you're proposing far-reaching legislation (banning vehicle types, legalizing drugs, whatever) just confer with LFM members (especially CXN) and you can try to work it out before you're left disappointed with a veto. They're not unreasonable at all.

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This may be because I'm not American, but I dont actually any purpose for it; it seems like a bunch of overly eccentric people using big words and trying to talk about issues that I've never even heard about. I agree with what someone else said about it just being "background noise", I've never seen anyone actually make much of a difference apart from ostracize themselves by not minding their own businesses. They seem to just get ignored and try to create issues for the people ignoring them.

Edited by EMC
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18 hours ago, bartman said:

 

I was directly told by multiple senators LFM "locked in" the recent SHAFT vote and stated it has to pass. Is this factual?

If there's a certain list of "no gos" that LFM will intervene to force a certain IC result, can we at least get a published list of these 'lines' so those of us trying to actually do political RP know where to tread and where not? Otherwise all you face is continued disinterest in political RP when it's clear right now IC lobbying/politics has little real effect.

 

It has led to a lot of confusion when HAD stated in this very thread:

firefox_s0HUabrO8v.png

 

Amending the SHAFT act in any way that doesn't change the script seems to be allowable under this interpretation, yet I'm told from multiple sources LFM 'decided' the recent vote - I understand there's a new LFM now, so can we get a official new opinion on this?

 

 

 

I never got this. LFM are "a small group of players" just as much as any player controlled body. The difference is one group is (hopefully - elections have been stalled for months now for 'reasons') chosen by the playerbase, and one in a administrative process that as far as I'm aware isn't public at all. Administrators are also players who can also make mistakes.

 

I still think the Senate was set up to fail in this regard; when it's public knowledge that LFM may intervene and kill any real productive ideas it kills any idea to contribute which is why you see them arguing over bathroom gender roles and anything so minute LFM won't care. Then the playerbase loses all interest because it doesn't actually affect them.

 

A simple public list of "These are topics the senate can not control without LFM approval/intervention" would go a long way towards helping that, instead of everyone flying blind on when LFM can/will intervene.

Hey @bartman,

I can see where you are coming from and I hope we can work this out smoothly. The idea of the senate is to create political RP, especially with the bills it has been a very great opportunity for the players to get themselves involved with the senate in order to be able to write bills. So the aim for the senate was always to ensure that they have this political aspect of the roleplay. Now, if we compare this with IRL, the senate can also write bills which do need to be signed by the president so they become a law, the process is the same here, but we got the governor who is either signing the bills or vetoing them. LFM is not here to demolish fun and hope, we want to create a healthy and joyful environment for everyone so the community has a great experience while RPing. The bills that are done will impact the community and that's why we review these bills and see if they need some improvements or good to go. 

firefox_s0HUabrO8v.png
I can also refer to this screenshot, because it does sum up the points that are being discussed.

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12 hours ago, cxn said:

Hey @bartman,

I can see where you are coming from and I hope we can work this out smoothly. The idea of the senate is to create political RP, especially with the bills it has been a very great opportunity for the players to get themselves involved with the senate in order to be able to write bills. So the aim for the senate was always to ensure that they have this political aspect of the roleplay. Now, if we compare this with IRL, the senate can also write bills which do need to be signed by the president so they become a law, the process is the same here, but we got the governor who is either signing the bills or vetoing them. LFM is not here to demolish fun and hope, we want to create a healthy and joyful environment for everyone so the community has a great experience while RPing. The bills that are done will impact the community and that's why we review these bills and see if they need some improvements or good to go. 

firefox_s0HUabrO8v.png
I can also refer to this screenshot, because it does sum up the points that are being discussed.

 

So then the Senate has every ability to vote an overruling of the veto correct? If LFM vetoes the bill as the Governor, can the senate vote once again and get a majority to pass the bill and overrule the Governor? This is also how it's done IRL.

 

EDIT: What's the point of a player ran government if the players democratically voted into office can be overruled by an OOC entity?

Edited by Boland
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31 minutes ago, Boland said:

 

So then the Senate has every ability to vote an overruling of the veto correct? If LFM vetoes the bill as the Governor, can the senate vote once again and get a majority to pass the bill and overrule the Governor? This is also how it's done IRL.

 

EDIT: What's the point of a player ran government if the players democratically voted into office can be overruled by an OOC entity?

 

And in-there, lies the nature of the problem.

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On 9/29/2021 at 3:00 PM, EMC said:

This may be because I'm not American, but I dont actually any purpose for it; it seems like a bunch of overly eccentric people using big words and trying to talk about issues that I've never even heard about. I agree with what someone else said about it just being "background noise", I've never seen anyone actually make much of a difference apart from ostracize themselves by not minding their own businesses. They seem to just get ignored and try to create issues for the people ignoring them.

 

Welcome to the US political system! Isn't it wonderful? 🙃

 

Having been able to RP closely with almost every member of the senate and IC government, it's not like the people in these roles aren't trying. They actually do a pretty excellent job. You point out a major issue however I think without noticing. Everyone wants to see more interaction with politicians and for politics to have more active role in their lives but for the most part like you said, people who attempt to connect with the community get ostracized and the community rarely seeks out these individuals to voice their issues. RP is a two way street so no surprise when both sides are insisting the other moves first, nothing gets done. 

 

On 9/29/2021 at 9:30 AM, mj2002 said:

Everyone who is actively involved and has some common sense knows this from the start. There was never a moment where small groups of players could wield supreme power over IC laws. The reasons for this setup are beyond obvious. Laws like these can make or break the environment for all or large groups of players on the server.

 

There could be a lot of really interesting RP created if people actually tried to communicate with and call out their representatives. However, the above needs to be cemented into everyone's minds.  No radical changes will ever come out of the IC legislator, period. But that doesn't mean really cool RP can't come from demanding the mundane or smaller changes.  

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