Move Power from LSPD to SAAA

[Coach]

4 hours ago, EliH said:

While this power SHOULD go to the SAAA, a crucial aspect of keeping this good RP is making sure ATC for SAAA are well-trained and using a set of standard vocabulary.

100% agree with this. That has been the biggest reason for the issues that have occurred.

4 hours ago, Jeroen said:

The Aviation Act was written when SAAA wasn't even a thing.

I believe that SAAA is still quite young and possibly still needs to mature a bit, same with the Air Traffic Controllers.

Also agree with this. They kind of came out of no where and there wasn’t really any “standardization” with how it was going to work. That leads to sloppy, inconsistent RP like we’ve seen in the logs above. I really like the idea of SAAA, but it’s going to take some bumps to get it to where it needs to be.

1 hour ago, ThatDutchPerson said:

A “Touch and Go” is merely enough time to drop someone off and go. The ATC gave clearance for this. What happened next was a pilot completely ignorant to the definition and decides to fully land the aircraft for a refuel.
 

ATC simply did its job and was being met with hostility from a law enforcement agency.

At what point in the logs did anyone say the helicopter was stopped and refueled? And even if you want to stick with that argument after that, the ATC was equally as ignorant to approve a touch and go. So that point is pretty moot through and through.

 

As for ATC doing it’s job and being met with hostility, I do not agree with what was done by AIR20 and agree fully there. However, the quality of RP this particular ATC was offering was pretty bad to say the least. Denying simple requests due to “standard protocol”, which as discussed above are non-existent, and even if they were, denying requests for some of the simple things pilots were requesting for no reason made aviation RP a massive headache. This was not a one time occurrence with this particular controller.

 

But none of that really has anything to do with the suggestion that’s being made which is to have SAAA in charge of pilot licenses and deviations. A suggestion I agree with but there HAS to be a lot of work put into the standards, protocols, etc etc into how SAAA will operate in all aspects. Both from an ATC standpoint and a deviation/license standpoint.

[delanto]

I think this also boils down to a lack of the information/ infrastructure for this type of detailed roleplay. As said above, there’s no class bravo airspace for LSIA (or really any airspace designations aside from restricted airspace), no published standard approach, standard taxi, standard instrument approach, etc. Blaine Aviation does have their manuals and lessons which they do a great job at but in the end nobody is going to make you a certified flight simmer. If we’re going to start having FAA style investigations into pilot deviation this kind of info needs to be out there and I’m not sure if we want to go full Flight Simulator 2020 here. 
 

A balance should be struck - confusions are bound to occur, like the touch and go scenario. It’s an easy mistake for someone just brushing up on the landing types to make and it would not be fun or beneficial to the server to yoink licenses because someone confused taxiway Alpha for Alpha 1. 
 

If there’s proper groundwork for what will and will not be enforced and expected of pilots, and the above is addressed, then I would be in favor of giving the Aviation Authority some power. I would just hate for it to sour aviation RP and scare people away by being too daunting. 
 

 

[Gigabyte]

I highly support @lambchops on what he said. We're touching an argument which is a bit complicated and articulated. VFR traffic is not meant to be under constant ATC control, as they follow Visual Flight Rules. I'd also like so see activity and a proper meaning of this faction (SAAA) that isn't just arguing with pilots in frequency because "they are flying under a non-authorized callsign" (Aero callsign, created in 1997 when the Sheriff's Aero Bureau got "created"). That's highly non-realistic, arguing with pilots on a frequency will get you fired. I can understand that not every pilot here has knowledge regarding aviation terminology as it isn't easy stuff, on top of that, it can also be complicated and messed. At this point I can agree with giving SAA the power of revoking licenses, but it has to have a COHERENT and REAL reason behind it, we should avoid stuff like "oh I'm suspending this guy's license because he didn't answer to me via radio". Licenses suspensions IRL are a real rarity and happens when someone does something really dangerous.

 

EDIT: @delanto said basically everything.

Edited August 11, 2021 by zGigabyte

[Copperhorse]

You can't give SAAA power unless they make guides on what they want in terms of roleplay and what is or isn't allowed. 99% of the people flying in GTA V have never piloted or co-piloted an aircraft. In the example seen here, you see the ATC person say it's "standard procedure". What is it standard procedure of? We haven't been given any knowledge on how a helicopter using a runway at a major international airport to land is "standard procedure". Until a set of actual "standard procedures" are passed by SAAA + approved by LFM and ample time is given to the proper factions that use aviation to assist them SAAA shouldn't get any IC power. I would even say to have IC courses for people with pilots licenses to make sure we're all on the same page when it comes to whatever procedures we end up making. I'd love more ATC roleplay, but when everyone is on different pages of how to proceed in the air it isn't going to work and is just going to cause massive headaches and more arguments over /atc. 

 

Lets remember that becoming a pilot is an extremely tedious process and takes years of experience to master. It's simply not a realistic expectation to put on people without giving them ANY sort of training by the central figure (SAAA) who is supposed to be directing them. Either SAAA needs to be the sole trainer and have their own courses with their own training that they want pilots to have to operate or they need to liase with the various aviation divisions in factions that do use them and create training courses tailored to SAAA's and the faction which is using the airspace's needs.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Copperhorse

[TheSenate]

12 hours ago, bartman said:

Based. Local law enforcement shouldn't be squaring up with air regulators.

 

[Tseard]

On the topic of moving the power from enforcement from the LSPD to SAAA, I'm in agreement. I have always found it odd that a local police department was in charge in that specific area. 

 

I can't look into the SAAA manuals and operating handbooks but I can only assume that it's right, I do not think LFM would approve them operating when it's incorrect. The so called ''standard aviation protocol'' should be public so that there is no debate about what is allowed and what isn't. 

[Scorch]

Big support on this one. Would make for a much more realistic experience on the air. Going off of those images, the pilots would lose their licenses as well as the other transmitter who claimed harrassment. No-one in their right mind would pull that one.

 

One of my biggest gripes when working with aviation in this server was seeing some of what people got away with. My most notable incident was when I almost called for Lazers (the fast jets out of Zancudo) on PD's Air One because they were refusing to speak to me as an Air Traffic Controller. This led me to believe someone was impersonating the callsign.

 

Aviation authority needs to be handed over to the correct body.

[Lloydski]

I've always wanted a faction like SAAA because I'd like air roleplay to be a more common thing. However, the issue I see with it is that it would require an overhaul of pilot licensing to do properly I think. For example, the image below is an approach plate for LAX (Los Angeles Intl) which is essentially what the controller was asking the pilot of the helicopter to do when he said 'standard procedure'.

 

If there's going to be an active ATC faction these things need to be taught to pilots so that they can communicate with them properly. For example, in standard flight in the real world - whatever the ATC says goes. Period. There's no argument, but if there's an issue you raise it on the ground. I fully support giving them authority over the air and all aviation-related roleplay, as long as these standards are widely published and pilots are taught them and not just expected to know it.

 

 

 

[joshua]

there sure is a lot of anger on this thread when, if you use your brain for 10 seconds, you'd know that the only reason PD has as much power as they do when it comes to control over pilot licenses is purely because there IS no other infrastructure in place on the server for a SAA faction (given i don't think they knew how many people were actually really interested in that kind of RP, let alone the fact no one really seemed to properly suggest it)

 

you could put your energy into making a concise and well put together suggestion on how you'd want the faction to work and a list of people that would be interested rather than putting it all into bashing another faction when they're just doing what they know.

Edited August 11, 2021 by joshua

[Viscaria]

7 hours ago, delanto said:

I think this also boils down to a lack of the information/ infrastructure for this type of detailed roleplay. As said above, there’s no class bravo airspace for LSIA (or really any airspace designations aside from restricted airspace), no published standard approach, standard taxi, standard instrument approach, etc. Blaine Aviation does have their manuals and lessons which they do a great job at but in the end nobody is going to make you a certified flight simmer. If we’re going to start having FAA style investigations into pilot deviation this kind of info needs to be out there and I’m not sure if we want to go full Flight Simulator 2020 here. 
 

A balance should be struck - confusions are bound to occur, like the touch and go scenario. It’s an easy mistake for someone just brushing up on the landing types to make and it would not be fun or beneficial to the server to yoink licenses because someone confused taxiway Alpha for Alpha 1. 
 

If there’s proper groundwork for what will and will not be enforced and expected of pilots, and the above is addressed, then I would be in favor of giving the Aviation Authority some power. I would just hate for it to sour aviation RP and scare people away by being too daunting. 
 

 

delanto summed up my thoughts with this post, agree with it entirely.