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IC Immigration & Crime


Gryphboi

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On 7/10/2021 at 1:29 AM, Koko said:

The Philipinnes isn't really comparable to the UK or any other EU country with their social security net and general economic level. If, as a British citizen, you have the means to immigrate to America, that likely means that you have a Master's degree in something (or above) and are coming essentially with a job offer from overseas. Someone portraying a character like you describe would be entirely realistic to the American experience of many immigrants.

 

The average immigrant character we're talking about comes from a "First World" country and comes with no apparent marketable skills (other than perhaps being hot) and oftentimes base their existence around going from club to club and from penthouse party to penthouse party. They "work", meaning they bartend once in a Blue Moon, or otherwise make no mention of their occupation or are always "just looking to see what's out there" (which in reality would give you a couple months before you'd get your ass sat on a plane back home after skipping your visa).

 

I agree that it's an RP server and we just have to assume that some things are not going to make sense, but I still think that it's good to put the word out there and hopefully tempt more people into playing characters that would make more sense from an immigration perspective.

 

We need more immigrants from poor countries that would definitely be improving their chances by coming here to do odd jobs and wait tables, not people who could be doing the same work for the same money at home but just decided to "check out Los Santos". It can work, you can justify it well, but you'll always be compared to the dozens of others who don't.

 

Your second and third paragraphs illustrate a common issue that I can't deny nor debate against.

 

A lot of the characters I seem to come across are indeed uneducated immigrants who have somehow passed through the rigorous immigration process. While I am stern in my belief that as a roleplay server we should be slightly lenient in this matter, I also agree that things have to make sense as you stated in your post. Reason why I didn't take this into consideration is that two of my characters are British, but one is educated while the other was visiting with friends for a holiday. It is true that there are British characters with no qualifications and the only job they claim to work is behind a bar. I don't usually see or hear people talking about an office job (even if it's just off-screen work) at all.

 

I've seen some characters from the Balkans, presumably trying to live "the American dream", but majority seem to be involved in crime (here I go stereotyping), but I've yet to see immigrants roleplaying nurses or hospitality staff.

 

On 7/10/2021 at 1:47 AM, i dont wanna od in LA said:

I think it's all just a question of doing your research properly. Being arrested as an illegal immigrant (especially from countries like Mexico) doesn't always result in deportation. It also must be noted that if your character is supposed  to be a convicted felon from some European country, there's a huge chance they would never be allowed into the US (i.e. a customs officer at the airport wouldn't allow them to stay, even if they had a valid visa, which is also unlikely) so if you roleplay a convicted felon from Europe suddenly moving to the US and then committing several crimes here, you're completely fucking up your char dev.

If you'd like to dive deeper into the issue of illegal immigrants coming to the US and then committing crimes here and serving time in american prisons, read about the shooting of Kate Steinle (in SF, California) committed by José Inez García Zárate. According to several sources: "José Inez García Zárate (or Juan Francisco López-Sánchez), of Guanajuato, Mexico, is an undocumented immigrant who was deported from the U.S. a total of five times, most recently in 2009. He was on probation in Texas at the time of the shooting.He had seven felony convictions, none of them for violent crimes. When he was apprehended, García Zárate was listed as 45 years old by police, but as 52 in jail records. García Zárate arrived in the U.S. sometime before 1991, the year he was convicted of his first drug charge in Arizona. He worked in Washington state in roofing and construction, and was also convicted three times there for felony heroin possession and manufacturing narcotics. Following another drug conviction and jail term, this time in Oregon, the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) deported García Zárate in June 1994. However, García Zárate returned to the U.S. within two years and was convicted again of heroin possession in Washington state. He was deported for the second time in 1997." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Kate_Steinle

To reiterate my original point, I believe that it's not unrealistic to commit a crime as an illegal immigrant and then end up in an american prison or get deported and try to make your way back into the country (well, you're left to NPC this but it's still fully doable). You just need to be reasonable about all of this, and I mean like very reasonable. Don't be afraid to do your research, because at the end of the day you won't know how to rp this properly unless you have some rl experience.

 

So it seems that the USA is somewhat similar to the UK, in that immigrants can be held in a prison after committing a crime. Only thing I can refer to is Orange is the New Black, where some of the Hispanic women are held for immigration, but were not sent to deportation facilities until much later. Obviously this isn't something real enough to act as precedence.

Edited by Aquila
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  • 5 weeks later...

Bumping this for reminder and suggestion.

 

After having come across several RP'd characters from nations outside the US, whom have RP'd not having citizenship, to do illegal violent crimes, misdemeanour and above, only to be jailed at TTCF for several days to be released back into the streets, is a bit ridiculous.

 

Any chance we can get this issue looked at? Doesn't have to be overly complicated, like bringing ICE as a faction, but something as simple as LEO players\Court RPers using the /report function to have a character "CK'd" through admin means and specify they got deported after they've been arrested for a violent misdemeanour, or any felony.

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7 minutes ago, RSanders said:

Bumping this for reminder and suggestion.

 

After having come across several RP'd characters from nations outside the US, whom have RP'd not having citizenship, to do illegal violent crimes, misdemeanour and above, only to be jailed at TTCF for several days to be released back into the streets, is a bit ridiculous.

 

Any chance we can get this issue looked at? Doesn't have to be overly complicated, like bringing ICE as a faction, but something as simple as LEO players\Court RPers using the /report function to have a character "CK'd" through admin means and specify they got deported after they've been arrested for a violent misdemeanour, or any felony.

I believe it's heavily circumstantial & resorting to CKs as a form of saying that a character was deported isn't really the way to go. In my previous post on this thread, I've explained in-depth that there were (and de facto are) several instances of people committing crimes, being deported and then returning to the country (illegally). Something surely could be done but implementing an immigration court simply isn't feasible and neither is creating any immigration-specific divisions/bureaus within LEO factions because at the end of the day we are portraying a sanctuary state.

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I think that as much as it is unrealistic, it's just one of those things that'd need such intense policing to stand in the way of what's a game for escapism that I don't think the community would really be happy with the result, be it Balkan War criminals wanting to join Organized Crime coming in stacking bodies from home, or british mallrats with no job who drive a sports car and are essentially overstaying tourists.

 

In individual cases it should be an RPQM issue, but with the level of crime and even just circumstantial crime that people can accidentally be involved in, if we wanted to make deportations realistic we'd lose around 70% of the active characters in the server.

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4 minutes ago, Koko said:

I think that as much as it is unrealistic, it's just one of those things that'd need such intense policing to stand in the way of what's a game for escapism that I don't think the community would really be happy with the result, be it Balkan War criminals wanting to join Organized Crime coming in stacking bodies from home, or british mallrats with no job who drive a sports car and are essentially overstaying tourists.

 

In individual cases it should be an RPQM issue, but with the level of crime and even just circumstantial crime that people can accidentally be involved in, if we wanted to make deportations realistic we'd lose around 70% of the active characters in the server.

 

I agree to a point. We do have to let reality slide sometimes, but I also feel that there should be better scrutiny for immigrant characters. I've seen way too many lazy characters that I sometimes wonder what their backstory is, if they even have one.

 

Being a young expat in America isn't easy or cheap, I do think that if they commit crime then they should be subject to harsher punishments IC if they commit crimes, but that might just discourage them from doing anything meaningful on the server.

 

All we would really need to do is encourage players to make characters with a reasonable backstory, and have them explain how they gained American citizenship, or who their sponsor is for their visa, or when they got their green card.

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10 minutes ago, Aquila said:

I agree to a point. We do have to let reality slide sometimes, but I also feel that there should be better scrutiny for immigrant characters. I've seen way too many lazy characters that I sometimes wonder what their backstory is, if they even have one.

 

Being a young expat in America isn't easy or cheap, I do think that if they commit crime then they should be subject to harsher punishments IC if they commit crimes, but that might just discourage them from doing anything meaningful on the server.

 

All we would really need to do is encourage players to make characters with a reasonable backstory, and have them explain how they gained American citizenship, or who their sponsor is for their visa, or when they got their green card.

 

I mean, if it were up to me there'd be harsh, realistic sentences for odd portrayal of immigrant characters, but I'm just trying to be reasonable and accept the reality of the medium that we play in. There shouldn't be such a thing as an unemployed immigrant, unless they've gained citizenship or permanent residence of some kind through family or through investing hundreds of thousands of dollars and employing US citizens. We have entire herds of mostly female characters who seem to move to Los Santos from Europe, they work two shifts as a bartender in a club or somewhere else and then essentially live a carefree existence after getting connected and hooked up with whatever it is they want, happily telling you that they don't work. In the same way, we have mostly men moving in as grizzled criminals with an extensive record (or a fresh, quickly expanding record) and apparently they just get to stay here after a double homicide.

 

... that's all fine and good and I respect the hustle, but there's no way you're a legal immigrant with that lifestyle.

 

In the same way, I agree, there should be systems to make people more self-aware as foreign characters. I understand many people might simply not stop and think about these things, and that's fine, but I think that people would think twice about their portrayal if they were held accountable for their status as immigrants in some way and that it'd lead to a higher standard for all in general.

 

It's just a hard case because people are going to RP what they're going to RP, and many, many people are decided against playing an American character, for a variety of reasons. And clever people RPing immigrants have already been giving themselves plot armor against this by RPing that one of their parents is American but they grew up in [Country], which would entitle them to a Green Card. That'd be the next stop for people who just want to RP foreign-born characters, and that's what we'd instantly see once people figured out the loophole for having an Irish national speaking Gaelic in Hawick or wherever.

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4 hours ago, Koko said:

 

I mean, if it were up to me there'd be harsh, realistic sentences for odd portrayal of immigrant characters, but I'm just trying to be reasonable and accept the reality of the medium that we play in. There shouldn't be such a thing as an unemployed immigrant, unless they've gained citizenship or permanent residence of some kind through family or through investing hundreds of thousands of dollars and employing US citizens. We have entire herds of mostly female characters who seem to move to Los Santos from Europe, they work two shifts as a bartender in a club or somewhere else and then essentially live a carefree existence after getting connected and hooked up with whatever it is they want, happily telling you that they don't work. In the same way, we have mostly men moving in as grizzled criminals with an extensive record (or a fresh, quickly expanding record) and apparently they just get to stay here after a double homicide.

 

... that's all fine and good and I respect the hustle, but there's no way you're a legal immigrant with that lifestyle.

 

In the same way, I agree, there should be systems to make people more self-aware as foreign characters. I understand many people might simply not stop and think about these things, and that's fine, but I think that people would think twice about their portrayal if they were held accountable for their status as immigrants in some way and that it'd lead to a higher standard for all in general.

 

It's just a hard case because people are going to RP what they're going to RP, and many, many people are decided against playing an American character, for a variety of reasons. And clever people RPing immigrants have already been giving themselves plot armor against this by RPing that one of their parents is American but they grew up in [Country], which would entitle them to a Green Card. That'd be the next stop for people who just want to RP foreign-born characters, and that's what we'd instantly see once people figured out the loophole for having an Irish national speaking Gaelic in Hawick or wherever.

 

I agree completely with you, as usual.

 

If we were back in the early days of the server, I wouldn't bat an eye about these issues and would just let them go. However, since there's a lot of force being put on characters on realistic portrayal, I don't think we should the admin team should pick and choose on miniscule details and penalise players for them. With the subject of immigration, I don't think it's that minor of an issue now with the server's climate/direction. If we really want to go all the way with laws, immersion, and the California aspect, then we shuould address why there are so many immigrants working menial jobs or involved in crime.

 

Sure, back in the day the server was pretty lenient and you could RP whatever you want to, but now with so many different rules, it's not so easy. Young characters, with no evidence of gaining citizenship (which takes years), green card, or working visa, are working bartender jobs or they're carrying out drug deals. That kinda stuff wouldn't fly on a heavy RP server at all. I understand that the demographics of LA is quite diverse, and that nearly half of the population are not US citizens at all, but LA and LS are totally different to each other, especially on RP servers.

 

A lot of players need to review their character biographies and make sense of how and why they're here. An issue like this is quite difficult to ignore when we're supposed to be having some kind of American experience. Of course there are older characters who may have been in the states for a long time, and are business owners, that kind of RP is fine. But a 21 year old with high school education working in a bar, living off tips (despite the server's pay system lol)? That wouldn't fly at all. This would've been a non-issue in the first two years of the server's life, but times have changed. I totally get that roleplaying an American can be difficult for someone if they're not exposed to the culture outside of the internet, but learning can be fun.

 

I've obviously gone off on a tangent and I apologise for this.

 

Edited by Aquila
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On 8/8/2021 at 3:28 PM, RSanders said:

Bumping this for reminder and suggestion.

 

After having come across several RP'd characters from nations outside the US, whom have RP'd not having citizenship, to do illegal violent crimes, misdemeanour and above, only to be jailed at TTCF for several days to be released back into the streets, is a bit ridiculous.

 

Any chance we can get this issue looked at? Doesn't have to be overly complicated, like bringing ICE as a faction, but something as simple as LEO players\Court RPers using the /report function to have a character "CK'd" through admin means and specify they got deported after they've been arrested for a violent misdemeanour, or any felony.

 

Firstly, I agree with much of what you've said - violent convicts, especially when it comes to felonies should be under threat of deportation. However the relationship between many US cities and any co-operation with the federal government when it comes to immigration and agencies like ICE is tenuous at best & in some case, one of open defiance. Especially for those who declare themselves as 'sanctuary cities'.

 

A full list of sanctuary cities and counties can be seen here: https://cis.org/Map-Sanctuary-Cities-Counties-and-States

 

The California Values Act, prohibits a California law enforcement agency from providing a person’s release date, or responding to a request for notification of a release date, unless that information is available to the public, and prohibits the transfer of an individual to immigration authorities, as specified, unless the person has been convicted of specified crimes or arrested for a serious or violent felony.

 

Furthermore, California is seeking to increase the power of the above law to further restrict its cooperation with federal government & agencies like ICE because they're essentially perceived as being racist, harmful and unfair. (Full text:https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220AB937)

 

This relationship is a very complex one - in this matter, the US is not Europe or the UK where states bow their knee with unswerving loyalty to the government. They will and do openly tell the federal government they will not co-operate. (see above).

 

Before any change to server policy regarding immigration status (which I agree with the premise), our government should be adopting similar laws like the above - because to do otherwise is just replacing one 'unrealistic and problematic' type of of RP with another.

As for who should be able to request such actions - LEO players should have zero control over such CK's. The job of law enforcement is to uphold the law, not to pass sentence.

If any changes should happen (since we're talking CK and not an hour sitting in a cell), such requests / appeals for deportation should be processed strictly via the courts and the cases public on the IC forums for everyone to see.

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