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A discussion involving Rule 19.


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2 hours ago, Midwest said:

This is why I am an ardent activist in GTAW's (and other roleplay servers) need to create staff dedicated to monitoring and enforcing such behaviors, similar to social media platforms and dating services. Especially when they're hosted out of an area that explicitly holds corporations responsible for the well-being of children and responsible for warding off exploitation under their supervision.

I see nothing but facts here. Ban all kinds of ERP and make fade to black mandatory even if it's two adults that engage into that kind of roleplay. There's literally no way to check one's age without actually asking them to provide some sort of identification & this will never be possible because it's a violation of GDPR and imposing GDPR laws to non-European members of the community would be illegal as well.

Edited by i dont wanna od in LA
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24 minutes ago, i dont wanna od in LA said:

I see nothing but facts here. Ban all kinds of ERP and make fade to black mandatory even if it's two adults that engage into that kind of roleplay. There's literally no way to check one's age without actually asking them to provide some sort of identification & this will never be possible because it's a violation of GDPR and imposing GDPR laws to non-European members of the community would be illegal as well.

If you bring a law in effect but have no way to actively enforce it, is it even a law?

There will always be people who do ERP, no doubt about it even if it gets completely forbidden. Will those players report their ERP counterparts? Ofcourse not. Do admins spectate random people? No ofcourse not.

Am I totally against having ERP with IRL minors? I am all against that. But there is no way to enforce a ban on ERP nor is there a way to verify their age, more on that below.

 

Honestly Im fine with both. I never make the choice, people make the choice for me. If someone wants ERP - I play along. If someone wants Fade to Black, I play along. However, when ERP does happen I make sure to take my part and make sure to my satisfaction that Im doing it with a player thats both ICly and OOCly of the age of consent in the country of France , since thats where the server is hosted; those laws apply. (edited: I thought age of consent in France is 18, it infact is 15. I make sure to my satisfaction players are OOCly 18+ beofre engaging in ERP).

 

Is there a way to be 100% sure? There never is, and this steers us into territory of age verification on the internet as a whole. Age verification on the internet is impossible unless you start violating important privacy laws that protect us from an almighty government and corporate world.

 

An exemple, please go to a famous pornsite that ends with ''hub''. It asks if you are the age of consent. Please hit YES. Welcome to the site!

In the Netherlands we have a similar problem with age verification, but with donating to streamers. Underaged people donate money, huge amounts, to streamers. The Dutch (adult) public is outraged! But does this means streamers should stop accepting money? No; they live off of it.

 

Can we ban ERP completely?: No, we have no way to enforce it.

Can we ban minors as characters?: Yes, but you miss vital character development when joining gangs (97% of gang members joined at 15 or lower)

Can we ban sexual slurs for minors?: Totally, but where is the line drawn? ''Suck my dick you yeeyee asshole!'' or at ''Hey baby, whats that fine ass doing today?''

Should something be done with rule 19?: Totally, all for it. Stricter, bigger, more restrictions! But please, when shouting stuff like ''ban all ERP'', please come with an effective way to enforce it too.

Edited by ThatDutchPerson
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1 minute ago, ThatDutchPerson said:

If you bring a law in effect but have no way to actively enforce it, is it even a law?

There will always be people who do ERP, no doubt about it even if it gets completely forbidden. Will those players report their ERP counterparts? Ofcourse not. Do admins spectate random people? No ofcourse not.

Am I totally against having ERP with IRL minors? I am all against that. But there is no way to enforce a ban on ERP nor is there a way to verify their age, more on that below.

 

Honestly Im fine with both. I never make the choice, people make the choice for me. If someone wants ERP - I play along. If someone wants Fade to Black, I play along. However, when ERP does happen I make sure to take my part and make sure to my satisfaction that Im doing it with a player thats both ICly and OOCly of the age of consent in the country of France, since thats where the server is hosted; those laws apply.

 

Is there a way to be 100% sure? There never is, and this steers us into territory of age verification on the internet as a whole. Age verification on the internet is impossible unless you start violating important privacy laws that protect us from an almighty government and corporate world.

 

An exemple, please go to a famous pornsite that ends with ''hub''. It asks if you are the age of consent. Please hit YES. Welcome to the site!

In the Netherlands we have a similar problem with age verification, but with donating to streamers. Underaged people donate money, huge amounts, to streamers. The Dutch (adult) public is outraged! But does this means streamers should stop accepting money? No; they live off of it.

 

Can we ban ERP completely?: No, we have no way to enforce it.

Can we ban minors as characters?: Yes, but you miss vital character development when joining gangs (97% of gang members joined at 15 or lower)

Can we ban sexual slurs for minors?: Totally, but where is the line drawn? ''Suck my dick you yeeyee asshole!'' or at ''Hey baby, whats that fine ass doing today?''

 

There's a bunch of loopholes in the law itself to impose some sort of age verification however I don't believe that it's necessary. However, the rules should explicitly state that any kind of descriptive and full in length erotic roleplay is bannable & fade-to-black should be the go no matter the age, because at that point the server wouldn't be providing any sexual material (i.e. /me sleeps with xyz_xyz isn't particularly sexual roleplay & isn't constituted as erotic/porn material by any law in the world, that's why movies very often use the "fade-to-black" motive to showcase that there's an on-going relationship between two people yet the movie cannot be rated as adult-exclusive, etc.) which is ultimately the goal.

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5 minutes ago, i dont wanna od in LA said:

There's a bunch of loopholes in the law itself to impose some sort of age verification however I don't believe that it's necessary. However, the rules should explicitly state that any kind of descriptive and full in length erotic roleplay is bannable & fade-to-black should be the go no matter the age, because at that point the server wouldn't be providing any sexual material (i.e. /me sleeps with xyz_xyz isn't particularly sexual roleplay & isn't constituted as erotic/porn material by any law in the world, that's why movies very often use the "fade-to-black" motive to showcase that there's an on-going relationship between two people yet the movie cannot be rated as adult-exclusive, etc.) which is ultimately the goal.

Before I react, I corrected myself. I thought age of consent in France was 18. Turns out its 15! My bad, I make sure players are 18 to my satisfaction, not 15. Ew. France changed their age of consent on April 16, 2021 appearntly. Interesting, that even complicates the issue from a legal standpoint further.

 

I understand your point of view, but the problem is, how will you actively enforce this new no-ERP policy? ERPers will not report eachother, and its already happening in secluded areas, if not locked private properties. There is no way to enforce a ban on ERP.

 

I am not opposed to a ban on ERP, and I even do it myself; because well, characters have sex. But if you ban it, come with an effective way to enforce it.

Edited by ThatDutchPerson
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1 minute ago, ThatDutchPerson said:

Before I react, I corrected myself. I thought age of consent in France was 18. Turns out its 15! My bad, I make sure players are 18 to my satisfaction, not 15. Ew.

 

I udnerstand your point of view, but the problem is, how will you actively enforce this new no-ERP policy? ERPers will not report eachother, and its already happening in secluded areas, if not locked private properties. There is no way to enforce a ban on ERP.

There are ways the server can conduct this entirely legitimately and legally. Given it's hosting is also subject to different legal requirements than other areas like the US. Such should probably not be extrapolated on in depth, in open channels but it is entirely possible.

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4 minutes ago, ThatDutchPerson said:

I udnerstand your point of view, but the problem is, how will you actively enforce this new no-ERP policy? ERPers will not report eachother, and its already happening in secluded areas, if not locked private properties. There is no way to enforce a ban on ERP.

All server logs are printed out in the administration Discord chats to my belief. Any sorts of descriptive sexual roleplay would be investigated and could lead to a ban. Once again, there's nothing particularly wrong with "/me sleeps w xyz xyz" because it's not explicit porn/sexual material. Its a mere description of the actions which may have a sexual context, however don't provide any DETAIL thus cannot be considered as such. It literally solves the issue for the entirety of the server; you don't have minor characters engaging into sexual roleplay & you don't have IRL minors engaging into sexual roleplay as well. This way the age of the player IRL wouldn't matter at all, if no sexual roleplay was allowed AT ALL, therefore the enforcement would be much easier, because people who engage into sexual roleplay could be easily weeded out, without admins investigating them for weeks in order to check their age.

Edited by i dont wanna od in LA
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1 minute ago, i dont wanna od in LA said:

All server logs are printed out in the administration Discord chats to my belief. Any sorts of descriptive sexual roleplay would be investigated and could lead to a ban. Once again, there's nothing particularly wrong with "/me sleeps w xyz xyz" because it's not explicit porn/sexual material. Its a mere description of the actions which may have a sexual context, however don't provide any DETAIL thus cannot be considered as such. It literally solves the issue for the entirety of the server; you don't have minor characters engaging into sexual roleplay & you don't have IRL minors engaging into sexual roleplay as well.

Admins do not check those logs on a daily basis. What comes remotely close is the fact that a signal is given off to admins when assets are being transferred without authorization, so maybe a system that sets off red-flags if they're used a lot in a short time span, like ''moan''. but this in turn would completely spam the admin's warning notifications, making their other duties harder to perform.

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1 minute ago, i dont wanna od in LA said:

All server logs are printed out in the administration Discord chats to my belief. Any sorts of descriptive sexual roleplay would be investigated and could lead to a ban. Once again, there's nothing particularly wrong with "/me sleeps w xyz xyz" because it's not explicit porn/sexual material. Its a mere description of the actions which may have a sexual context, however don't provide any DETAIL thus cannot be considered as such. It literally solves the issue for the entirety of the server; you don't have minor characters engaging into sexual roleplay & you don't have IRL minors engaging into sexual roleplay as well. This way the age of the player IRL wouldn't matter at all, if no sexual roleplay was allowed AT ALL.

Based tbh. However it still does not address my point where Rule 19 as it stands does not clarify itself properly and makes it so characters can make gross sexual comments at adult characters

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4 minutes ago, i dont wanna od in LA said:

There's a bunch of loopholes in the law itself to impose some sort of age verification however I don't believe that it's necessary. However, the rules should explicitly state that any kind of descriptive and full in length erotic roleplay is bannable & fade-to-black should be the go no matter the age, because at that point the server wouldn't be providing any sexual material (i.e. /me sleeps with xyz_xyz isn't particularly sexual roleplay & isn't constituted as erotic/porn material by any law in the world, that's why movies very often use the "fade-to-black" motive to showcase that there's an on-going relationship between two people yet the movie cannot be rated as adult-exclusive, etc.) which is ultimately the goal.

I'm not against ERP but after some of the things I've seen happen on this server, I have come to be very much against the idea of ERP on this server  as long as underage players are allowed. 

 

If Rule 19 is going to be revised, it should be revised to restrict all players from engaging in ERP or otherwise detailed sexual roleplay/references.  This hysteria over underage CHARACTERS (not players) engaging in typical teenage behaviors that don't lead to forbidden sexual RP is hard for me to wrap my head around when there are actual underage PLAYERS being exposed to descriptive sexual RP via adult characters.

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1 minute ago, Taina said:

I'm not against ERP but after some of the things I've seen happen on this server, I have come to be very much against the idea of ERP on this server  as long as underage players are allowed. 

 

If Rule 19 is going to be revised, it should be revised to restrict all players from engaging in ERP or otherwise detailed sexual roleplay/references.  This hysteria over underage CHARACTERS (not players) engaging in typical teenage behaviors that don't lead to forbidden sexual RP is hard for me to wrap my head around when there are actual underage PLAYERS being exposed to descriptive sexual RP via adult characters.

Honestly best way to do this is to ban underage players and create a disclaimer like adult content has about being 18 or older, as trying to get ID from every active player would be a logistical nightmare tbh.

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