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A discussion involving Rule 19.


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1 minute ago, bartman said:

As for 'npc parent' excuses, I'm not sure how this actually falls into the rules - are minor characters allowed to do that, or can you presume they're homeless unless the parents are real characters?

Almost every underage character NPC's legal guardians because otherwise, the server would be overrun with underage homeless characters. It isn't difficult to do since most underage characters are portraying kids with absent parents.  

 

4 minutes ago, bartman said:

Correct, but the difference is adult characters don't get special dispositions that make it much harder to deal with them because basically any borderline trollish behavior can be justified with "I'm rping a teenager!"

I realize this happens but in my experience, borderline trollish behavior can't be excused with 'I'm RPing a teenager!'  Players need to report nonsense like underage characters trolling and then claiming exception from consequence based on age, and simply let admins deem what's appropriate in that scenario. I'm not sure why some people seem to think underage characters are the problem because of a few instances. This isn't something I've seen much of in my time while playing mostly underage characters across various facs and across the map.

 

12 minutes ago, bartman said:

The person posting the job postings for social work isn't in GOV anymore, there is 1 application from over a month ago for social worker that never got a response. If there are active social workers that exist, I've never seen them. GOV definitively needs to pick this sector up, but I don't know how many people on GTAW would even want to RP a social worker who gets paid to deal with "ay shorty" comments all day.

Agreed. Thank you for the information. 

 

When I first arrived to GTAW, I applied for this job and was baffled when I wasn't accepted after basing my character's work/educational  background on my RL work/educational background - which includes social work.  My character was rejected for lack of experience.

 

There are a lot of things that GOV can ICly do to help fix problems with underage characters.  But the underage characters are not the problem. 

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2 minutes ago, Zinneera said:

The character is rather notorious for bull-headed PTSD-triggered instinctual responses to threats. After being hit by a bat all she saw was 'Hack the attack to ribbons'. It's why she doesn't have a PF. It's why she carries unconventional weaponry. 

Some would say they're tired of some characters hiding behind the 'PTSD' excuse. But that's neither here nor there. Just an observation.

 

7 minutes ago, Zinneera said:

And while plenty say it's not failRP, I have been reported for it. Just grumbling at them and walking off seems to just absolutely trigger gang rat RPers.

What's happened in the cases where you were reported for walking away? Were you found to be in the wrong by an admin? I don't imagine you would suffer any consequences for walking away from a scene assuming it's appropriate, so if you've previously been punished after being reported for walking away from a scene, I'm going to assume there was some other reason for it. Perhaps walking away was not appropriate in that instance.

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14 minutes ago, Taina said:

Almost every underage character NPC's legal guardians because otherwise, the server would be overrun with underage homeless characters. It isn't difficult to do since most underage characters are portraying kids with absent parents.  

 

You just admitted the problem without realizing it.  The apparently staff accepted lore (based on the multiple rant-sized discussions on it) is the population in game is the population you get; you can't NPC areas being populated or NPC the city being bigger than it is. So why is a considerable server population able to RP being wandering unaccounted for teenagers with absent or no parents? In a city with the crime rate of Night City? It just doesn't make sense, IC or OOC. They /should/ be picked up the first opportunity and dumped into foster care, but being as evidently no one wants to RP running foster care (can't say I blame them), we're stuck with the situation we have now.

 

If I can't roleplay having a NPC wife or husband and say they were driving when I get pulled over drunk, why can these kids NPC having parents? Not trying to be an ass, just a thought experiment.

 

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I realize this happens but in my experience, borderline trollish behavior can't be excused with 'I'm RPing a teenager!'  Players need to report nonsense like underage characters trolling and then claiming exception from consequence based on age, and simply let admins deem what's appropriate in that scenario. I'm not sure why some people seem to think underage characters are the problem because of a few instances. This isn't something I've seen much of in my time while playing mostly underage characters across various facs and across the map.

I'm sorry but the "just report people breaking the rules" argument doesn't work anymore. Not on a server with 800 population where at peak times a kid being dumb isn't worth waiting an hour in game for a report to be handled, or waiting upwards of a week for a forum report to be handled. We need to stop dumping problems on staff and handle problems at the root, serverwide. It's not economical to rely on admins to fix every problem individually on a server with 800 players and (if you're lucky) 5% of that population being staff members.
 

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Agreed. Thank you for the information. 

 

When I first arrived to GTAW, I applied for this job and was baffled when I wasn't accepted after basing my character's work/educational  background on my RL work/educational background - which includes social work.  My character was rejected for lack of experience.

 

There are a lot of things that GOV can ICly do to help fix problems with underage characters.  But the underage characters are not the problem. 

 

 

So you have to evaluate it from a logical point of view; you like playing teenage characters, I respect that. Maybe you're very good at it, I'm not going to judge. But let's evaluate this logically. A risk vs reward analysis that takes the personal element out of it so no one feels like they're being attacked.
 

What serious roleplay as a community do teenage characters offer to the community compared to the problems that group, systematically, brings?

 

 

 

Edited by bartman
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7 minutes ago, Taina said:

Some would say they're tired of some characters hiding behind the 'PTSD' excuse. But that's neither here nor there. Just an observation.

 

A mixture of PTSD and just an outright hatred for people she deems 'Street/Alley Rats'. People like these kids who purposefully find trouble to lose an arm or leg to.

 

Nonetheless, the special privileges the minor-characters get is what the issue continues to be. There's several states, including my own, who would give kids the death penalty for less than some have done on GTAW.

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1 minute ago, bartman said:

You just admitted the problem without realizing it.  The apparently staff accepted lore (based on the multiple rant-sized discussions on it) is the population in game is the population you get; you can't NPC areas being populated or NPC the city being bigger than it is. So why is a considerable server population able to RP being wandering unaccounted for teenagers with absent or no parents? In a city with the crime rate of Night City? It just doesn't make sense, IC or OOC. They /should/ be picked up the first opportunity and dumped into foster care, but being as evidently no one wants to RP running foster care (can't say I blame them), we're stuck with the situation we have now.

That's exactly my point. Realistically, these characters would be dumped into foster care - but that doesn't exist in game. On the other hand, realistically you are not going to find any city with gangs that are not overrun with teenagers. Teenage characters are not the problem - a lack of age-appropriate resources for these characters is the problem. 

 

4 minutes ago, bartman said:

I'm sorry but the "just report people breaking the rules" argument doesn't work anymore. Not on a server with 800 population where at peak times a kid being dumb isn't worth waiting an hour in game for a report to be handled, or waiting upwards of a week for a forum report to be handled. We need to stop dumping problems on staff and handle problems at the root, serverwide. It's not economical to rely on admins to fix every problem individually on a server with 800 players and (if you're lucky) 5% of that population being staff members.

We can say this about virtually anything that gets reported in game. The solution here is not to ban underage characters because some don't know how to play the role. We're not going to ban illegal RP or illegal characters because some illegal RPers break rules, are we? They're an important part of the server, and underage characters are an important part of the illegal RP community.

 

7 minutes ago, bartman said:

What serious roleplay as a community do teenage characters offer to the community compared to the problems that group, systematically, brings?

I'm not sure how to answer this question - not just about underage characters but about any group. Each of our characters are unique in what they can contribute in RP on the server - no matter the age or what sector of RP they're in.

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1 minute ago, Zinneera said:

A mixture of PTSD and just an outright hatred for people she deems 'Street/Alley Rats'. People like these kids who purposefully find trouble to lose an arm or leg to.

 

Nonetheless, the special privileges the minor-characters get is what the issue continues to be. There's several states, including my own, who would give kids the death penalty for less than some have done on GTAW.

Can you please provide an example of a child being given the death penalty in the United States?

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2 minutes ago, Taina said:

Can you please provide an example of a child being given the death penalty in the United States?

Actual children being given death penalty hasn't been since 1972, however juveniles held until adulthood are then subsequently executed in several states. Youngest being North Carolina, incarcerated at Age 16, executed at Age 29. And Virginia, incarcerated at 17, executed at 23.

 

Generally they're still considered 'Juvenile Execution Sentences', as the inmate is incarcerated as a juvenile and held in death row until a judge clears them for execution.

 

0f0070badd73db7ec205b9fd67680d5c.png

 

tbh death row could add neat character 'progression' stories or redemption arcs while behind bars. Imagine some thugrat being incarcerated in Juvie until 16, transferred to State Lockup until execution.

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Just now, Zinneera said:

Actual children being given death penalty hasn't been since 1972, however juveniles held until adulthood are then subsequently executed in several states. Youngest being North Carolina, incarcerated at Age 16, executed at Age 29. And Virginia, incarcerated at 17, executed at 23.

 

Generally they're still considered 'Juvenile Execution Sentences', as the inmate is incarcerated as a juvenile and held in death row until a judge clears them for execution.

 

0f0070badd73db7ec205b9fd67680d5c.png

 

tbh death row could add neat character 'progression' stories or redemption arcs while behind bars. Imagine some thugrat being incarcerated in Juvie until 16, transferred to State Lockup until execution.

Do note- in the United States, Juvenile lockups are considered 'child' prisoners and subsequently 'executions of minors'.

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@Zinneera  @orca112

 

Thank you for providing those references.

 

Quoted from the link:

"In some ways the debate over the death penalty for juveniles is a curious one. Many[weasel words] have pointed out that historically, few juveniles have ever been executed for their crimes. Even when there have been juveniles sentenced to death, few if any executions have actually been carried out. In the United States for example, youths under the age of 18 were executed at a rate of 20–27 per decade, or about 1.6–2.3% of all executions from 1880s to the 1920s.  This has dropped significantly when only 3 juveniles were executed between January 1977 and November 1986.[5]"

 

It's not commonplace to execute juvenile offenders - even once they're adults. I'm not sure if you were getting at holding underage characters to the same standard they would be for RL crimes but if that's the case, this only serves as confirmation that harsh punishments (like capital punishment) should not be typical.  

 

 

Edited by Taina
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