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A discussion involving Rule 19.


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7 minutes ago, Smilesville said:

Either. Doesn't matter to me whether the character or the player is under 18 - either is gross.

Yeah, I'm not sure what removing underage characters from the server has to do with protecting underage players. All it will do is remove a large portion of the illegal community's playerbase and a lot of realistic RP and character development, all for the sake of allowing some players to feel more comfortable with the knowledge that their characters will not be catcalled by an underage character (who likely has an adult player behind him). 

 

And yes, I'm oversimplifying things a bit with that example but I have to give an example so people can see how silly that is - because catcalling is exactly what some in this thread have expressed concern over.

Edited by Taina
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18 minutes ago, i dont wanna od in LA said:

Problem is that you can't just ban all underage players from the server, because that would mean a loss of at least of 50% of the playerbase. Removing underage CHARACTERS wouldn't solve the issue either, because if they were ERPing as 18yo+ characters would still mean that they're exposed to explicit sexual material as minors IRL and the issue of IRL predatory and legal problems would still remain unsolved.

If we're not concerned about legal liability, why is that part of the discussion?

 

Like I mentioned before - I don't think underage players account for anywhere remotely close to 50% of the player base, and I don't think they're responsible enough to be viewing any of the mature themes the server entails (violence, drug use, gangs, etc etc.) A scene playing out the dismemberment of a body for easier disposal comes to mind.

 

While we're definitely in agreement that sexual corruption of minors is reprehensible and needs to be stopped, I think our disagreement lies in that I believe they need to be shielded from other forms of depravity. At some point, we have to decide whether all content on the server is made kid friendly, or to prohibit individuals under 18 from participating at all.

 

Obviously, I think the latter is the way to go.

13 minutes ago, Taina said:

Yeah, I'm not sure what removing underage characters from the server has to do with protecting underage players. All it will do is remove a large portion of the illegal community's playerbase and a lot of realistic RP and character development, all for the sake of allowing some players to feel more comfortable with the knowledge that their characters will not be catcalled by an underage character (who likely has an adult player behind him). 

I'm proposing both. Remove underage players and characters from the server. I am not interested in permitting exploitation or indulgence in a pedophile's fantasies (no matter how old the players may be.) I've gone into the gang demographic at length before, and while I acknowledge it's a thing that happens, we still shouldn't permit it on the server.

  • We don't allow plenty of things that happen IRL, e.g. cannibalism.
  • Minors 15 and under only make up 15% of a gang's makeup across the U.S. according to the best available data.
  • Los Angeles gangsters tend to be older than the average gang of the nation.
  • We lack social services, juvenile hall, and other server structures to realistically accommodate the presence of minors.

I've seen more pedophilia than meaningful development of minor characters - and that's a problem.

Edited by Smilesville
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17 minutes ago, Smilesville said:

I am not interested in permitting exploitation or indulgence in a pedophile's fantasies (no matter how old the players may be.)

Thank you for pointing this out because it's something I was overlooking. You're absolutely right about this.

 

Even so, denying an entire community of players to RP a certain age that is appropriate for the kind of RP that happens on the server (i.e., teens in gangs on a server dedicated to criminal RP) doesn't make sense when you're talking about a handful of sick individuals.  Banning underage characters entirely isn't going to prevent those sick individuals from logging on and and getting their kicks from pretending another character is underage (given that all of our characters look like adults, anyway!) - not as long as ERP is permitted on the server. 

 

It's alarming that you've seen more pedophilia than meaningful development of minor characters - especially when I can probably count on one hand (maybe 1 1/2) the number of reports that have gone up about suspected pedophilia in game in a year. 

 

I've actually seen a lot more inappropriate things taking place on DC servers that expose RL minors to inappropriate topics and set them up for predators - and sadly, I've learned of cases where it has.  Should we ban GTAW-related DC servers?  Where do we draw the line here?

 

Underage characters aren't the problem.  Underage players and ERP are the problem. One or the other has to go.

Edited by Taina
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1 minute ago, Taina said:

Even so, denying an entire community of players to RP a certain age that is appropriate for the kind of RP that happens on the server (i.e., teens in gangs on a server dedicated to criminal RP) doesn't make sense when you're talking about a handful of sick individuals.  Banning underage characters entirely isn't going to prevent those sick individuals from logging on and and getting their kicks from pretending another character is underage (given that all of our characters look like adults, anyway!) - not as long as ERP is permitted on the server. 

I personally don't see "teen gangs" as something that would be realistic in the Los Santos area, if we're going for a Los Angeles counterpart.

 

Still, there's definitely an argument to be had regarding that, and it's much easier for staff to police interactions with characters who're under 18 since their ages are easily visible. Like @i dont wanna od in LAsaid, it's impossible to gauge the age of every player, and so I'm much more inflexible on my proposal to ban <18 players altogether.

 

There's definitely room for discussion regarding <18 characters - but in my mind, there's no such room regarding <18 players.

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There's definitely some fellow e-lawyers from the EU who can chime in for the ANTI-ERP MOVEMENT in regards to EU based laws, but in the US;

US Fed -
"Title V: Securing Adolescents from Online Exploitation - (Sec. 501) Requires electronic communication or remote computing service providers who obtain actual knowledge of violations of child exploitation and pornography laws to: (1) provide contact information to the CyberTipline of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC); and (2) provide information relating to the Internet identity of any individual who appears to have violated a child exploitation or pornography law, including the geographic location of such individual and images of any apparent child pornography." https://www.congress.gov/bill/110th-congress/senate-bill/1738

https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-2001-coercion-and-enticement-18-usc-2422#:~:text=Section 2422(a) of Title,maximum punishment of 10 years'

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2256#8

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2252

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-child-sex-trafficking

It can also violate multiple state level laws more so explicitly;
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.68a.090 - Washington
https://milwaukee-criminal-lawyer.com/milwaukee-criminal-defense-attorney-practice-areas/sex-crime-defense-attorney/exposing-a-child-to-harmful-material-defense/#:~:text=Exposing a child to harmful material is a Class I,and 2 years extended supervision. - Wisconsin

https://www.dwg-law.com/criminal-defense/contributing-to-the-delinquency-of-a-minor/#:~:text=In North Carolina%2C contributing to,active%2C intermediate or community punishment.&text=If the minor is your,could be affected as well. - North Carolina


Under most of these, it is also illegal not only to participate in the acts, but also to knowingly and willingly receive, transport, and/or solicit said materials. There are also laws that explicitly apply to foreigners, which entirely can be extradited to the US for trial if the host country agrees.


18 U.S. Code § 2258A - Reporting requirements of providers | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute (cornell.edu) also explicitly requires any platform providing services in the US to immediately present evidence of said acts to law enforcement authorities, this can also extend to negligent disregard (whether knowing or not) when it comes to looking into and reporting these actions. 
 

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2 minutes ago, Midwest said:

There's definitely some fellow e-lawyers from the EU who can chime in for the ANTI-ERP MOVEMENT in regards to EU based laws, but in the US;

US Fed -
"Title V: Securing Adolescents from Online Exploitation - (Sec. 501) Requires electronic communication or remote computing service providers who obtain actual knowledge of violations of child exploitation and pornography laws to: (1) provide contact information to the CyberTipline of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC); and (2) provide information relating to the Internet identity of any individual who appears to have violated a child exploitation or pornography law, including the geographic location of such individual and images of any apparent child pornography." https://www.congress.gov/bill/110th-congress/senate-bill/1738

https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-2001-coercion-and-enticement-18-usc-2422#:~:text=Section 2422(a) of Title,maximum punishment of 10 years'

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2256#8

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2252

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-child-sex-trafficking

It can also violate multiple state level laws more so explicitly;
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.68a.090 - Washington
https://milwaukee-criminal-lawyer.com/milwaukee-criminal-defense-attorney-practice-areas/sex-crime-defense-attorney/exposing-a-child-to-harmful-material-defense/#:~:text=Exposing a child to harmful material is a Class I,and 2 years extended supervision. - Wisconsin

https://www.dwg-law.com/criminal-defense/contributing-to-the-delinquency-of-a-minor/#:~:text=In North Carolina%2C contributing to,active%2C intermediate or community punishment.&text=If the minor is your,could be affected as well. - North Carolina


Under most of these, it is also illegal not only to participate in the acts, but also to knowingly and willingly receive, transport, and/or solicit said materials. There are also laws that explicitly apply to foreigners, which entirely can be extradited to the US for trial if the host country agrees.


18 U.S. Code § 2258A - Reporting requirements of providers | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute (cornell.edu) also explicitly requires any platform providing services in the US to immediately present evidence of said acts to law enforcement authorities, this can also extend to negligent disregard (whether knowing or not) when it comes to looking into and reporting these actions. 
 

Based

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8 minutes ago, Smilesville said:

I personally don't see "teen gangs" as something that would be realistic in the Los Santos area, if we're going for a Los Angeles counterpart.

 

Still, there's definitely an argument to be had regarding that, and it's much easier for staff to police interactions with characters who're under 18 since their ages are easily visible. Like @i dont wanna od in LAsaid, it's impossible to gauge the age of every player, and so I'm much more inflexible on my proposal to ban <18 players altogether.

 

There's definitely room for discussion regarding <18 characters - but in my mind, there's no such room regarding <18 players.

 

In the LA gangs I've researched for my RP, the most active members are typically the younger ones.  And starting a character off as a young teen allows for a lot of great char development  - when done properly.  I'll admit that a lot of underage characters aren't being properly portrayed but sadly, character portrayal is an issue across the entire server.  It's not limited to underage characters in the least bit.  

Edited by Taina
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1 minute ago, Taina said:

I'll admit that a lot of underage characters aren't being properly portrayed but sadly, character portrayal is an issue across the entire server.  It's not limited to underage characters in the least bit.

You're absolutely right, of course. I simply believe there needs to be a higher standard when playing out particular concepts - be it because of sensitivity issues, potential for abuse, et cetera - the "serial killer" comes to mind.

 

I would very much like to see people RPing someone under 18 to be held to higher standards if they are to remain on the server.

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1 hour ago, Beholder said:

Pulling a machete on a kid who is verballing harassing you is incredibly poor escalation.

Not to mention that the kid SNEAK up on her hitting her in the back of her head POINT BLANK she then turns around and kills me eating the baseball to the head and she’s mad about a kid saying shit and never said 1 thing in /b 

 

not it to mention zinnera was telling an 17 year old to pay to fuck her “Orlando Keys” for 10k and she had knowledge he was a kid but continue and ofc Orlando didn’t pay

 

I also find it hilarious of the amount of jobs she got and being a FARMER as well I’m really surprised how admins let people like these pass just for her to enjoy HER role play not anyone else 

 

I honestly feel disgusted and disturb of zinnera trying to have esex with Orlando keys when he was 17 I didn’t show it oocly but I was afraid to show and express myself against a aggressor zinneera and I’m coming out right now 😕 should’ve done it sooner but I feel like I have a good support in this community and want to talk against a aggressor who portrays herself as a victim 

Edited by casanovaa22
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