How the server fails to encourage roleplay over money

[Smilesville]

4 minutes ago, maramizo said:

I agree, but I don't see a way to put it into effect without a system that fails to acknowledge all players. How do you get boosted? Do you get recommended by X amount of players (meta becomes to make friends)? Or do you have to wait until an admin acknowledges you (meta becomes to do specific types of RP where you're more likely to get recognition)?

The way it's worked in other communities, it's staff who recognize you - though this does go hand in hand with their utilization of NPCs. Making friends wouldn't particularly factor into the equation, and I'm not so sure your meta concerns with regards to staff will materialize.

 

It's true that some staff members will favor particular sorts of RP above others, but we have enough of a diversity in background (some civilian, some PD, some illegal, etc) that I don't believe it would be a problem until the very top of the sorts of ranks I've suggested where you would need a majority of the staff team to sign off on a rank increase. Earlier ranks are much more trivial - as a staff member, you see someone acting in character and notice their rank is 0, so you boost them to a 1.

 

The process is relatively straightforward for the first few ranks; you can determine whether someone is fit for promotion to ranks 1 or 2 within a few minutes of interacting with them. Only when we get into a realm where definitions can become muddled (differing opinions will exist on what it means to 'enhance the play of those around them,' for example) do we require more staff members to weigh in before ultimately ranking someone up. 3+ is a moderate challenge, but a majority of the staff team to agree would require an exceptional player indeed. If these last two ranks sound difficult and cumbersome to obtain, that is on purpose.

 

The system fails to acknowledge each and every player by design because not every player deserves recognition - not everyone will reach a 3 or 4.

 

It definitely needs some changes to mesh perfectly with the server, but we'll get decision paralysis if we get hung up on minor points trying to make the concept perfect before implementation. That said, there are definitely points of the idea that need discussion. Which applications would each RP rating be able to circumvent? What additional privileges do we want to attach to each rank?

 

This all hinges, of course, on getting the staff to interact with as many players as possible - ergo #2 and 3 on my list.

[maramizo]

10 hours ago, Smilesville said:

The way it's worked in other communities, it's staff who recognize you - though this does go hand in hand with their utilization of NPCs. Making friends wouldn't particularly factor into the equation, and I'm not so sure your meta concerns with regards to staff will materialize.

 

It's true that some staff members will favor particular sorts of RP above others, but we have enough of a diversity in background (some civilian, some PD, some illegal, etc) that I don't believe it would be a problem until the very top of the sorts of ranks I've suggested where you would need a majority of the staff team to sign off on a rank increase. Earlier ranks are much more trivial - as a staff member, you see someone acting in character and notice their rank is 0, so you boost them to a 1.

 

The process is relatively straightforward for the first few ranks; you can determine whether someone is fit for promotion to ranks 1 or 2 within a few minutes of interacting with them. Only when we get into a realm where definitions can become muddled (differing opinions will exist on what it means to 'enhance the play of those around them,' for example) do we require more staff members to weigh in before ultimately ranking someone up. 3+ is a moderate challenge, but a majority of the staff team to agree would require an exceptional player indeed. If these last two ranks sound difficult and cumbersome to obtain, that is on purpose.

 

The system fails to acknowledge each and every player by design because not every player deserves recognition - not everyone will reach a 3 or 4.

 

It definitely needs some changes to mesh perfectly with the server, but we'll get decision paralysis if we get hung up on minor points trying to make the concept perfect before implementation. That said, there are definitely points of the idea that need discussion. Which applications would each RP rating be able to circumvent? What additional privileges do we want to attach to each rank?

 

This all hinges, of course, on getting the staff to interact with as many players as possible - ergo #2 and 3 on my list.

I like it. The prevention of having admins RP strict characters means slashing a large portion of their bias, and helps ensure the majority of players are having fun. Being a Dungeon Master in general is very enjoyable and it's the sort of quality that admins should have in the first place.

 

I think how this would be approached is through a simple script in game where admins can use commands or a GUI to add commendations to players, where the script automatically bumps up players' levels based on the amount of their commendations. Maybe they reset when you have a bad admin interaction (only the history would show, but # reverts to 0).

 

I don't think this system will ever be put in place. I already see admins being pissed that they can't RP and say "we're being punished" (even though being a Dungeon Master, again, is way more fun than roleplaying one specific character). I see Nervous hating it. I really don't think it'd ever be put in place. 

 

I would suggest focusing on commendations first, but we already know that people that RP closer to admins will be the most likely to get commendations, and it would cause incredible bias.

[TinPan]

The NPC admin-event discussion aside for a minute so that we can get back on topic, I am still curious to hear what the server administration has to say in regards to this thread.

 

A lot of points by multiple people here were brought up and so far there doesn’t exactly seem to have been much engagement in this thread beyond “What do you suggest we do?”.

[Smilesville]

11 minutes ago, maramizo said:

I don't think this system will ever be put in place. I already see admins being pissed that they can't RP and say "we're being punished" (even though being a Dungeon Master, again, is way more fun than roleplaying one specific character). I see Nervous hating it. I really don't think it'd ever be put in place.

It's unfortunate, but this rings very true.

 

The staff culture here is admittedly very different from the sorts of communities I'm accustomed to - normalizing the idea that "the server loses its magic when you're working behind the curtain" won't be an easy pill for the community to swallow. It takes a particular sort of individual to enjoy the role of Dungeon Master (and dare I say, some of our staff wouldn't be up to the task.)

 

Still, no harm tossing the suggestion out every so often. They can't say I haven't proposed solutions.

 

15 minutes ago, TinPan said:

The NPC admin-event discussion aside for a minute so that we can get back on topic, I am still curious to hear what the server administration has to say in regards to this thread.

 

A lot of points by multiple people here were brought up and so far there doesn’t exactly seem to have been much engagement in this thread beyond “What do you suggest we do?”.

What is on topic to you? What are you expecting them to say, exactly? I'm perfectly happy to pick on people with green banners when they're acting poorly, but nobody is under the illusion that what you've said is incorrect so far as I can tell.

 

So far as I can tell, the two administrators who've commented have accepted the premise of the point you were trying to make. I don't see anyone making the claim that the server's structure encourages roleplay over money. In fact, @shiroq goes as far as to diagnose the issue fairly well.

 

Everyone likes to throw the phrase "I prefer rp over money" While there always will be a few that fit the description but usually they already have millions in their bank accounts and already "made it" and they have no reason to keep on making money or like mentioned before they will be short term characters with really good roleplay that lasts for a month or two and they move on, to something else.

It's in human nature to seek reward for their work and I don't believe that mentality will ever change, nobody here would work at a job in real life for free so shouldn't expect people to spend their time at RP jobs doing them for free either.

 

Currently the business system is designed on the 4k an hour script payment, most "outside the box" business ideas simply don't have the ability to earn enough money to be able to exist because they do not fit the 4k an hour script criteria.

 

If we're all in agreement about this, the question becomes what do we do about it? The floor is open to suggestions, ergo me presenting my own - keeping good players by incentivizing them is the first of many steps we have to take to address the problem.

 

If the server fails to encourage roleplay over money, we have to make roleplay more valuable than money. Simple as that.

 

Let's try to hash out some solutions before someone gets it in their head to have the last word and immediately lock the thread afterwards, yeah?

[arrdef]

I don't think any of you have been part of any real life tabletop community if you think confining admins to an OOC directing role on the server is acceptable.
No DM in the history of tabletop is only ever a DM who never plays a character. It's fun to DM but it gets old and sometimes you want to jump in on the action for a game. Admins are simply volunteering a part of their gametime to help players and enforce rules.

 

The pervasive focus on money is simply a consequence of a lack of creativity from both management and the playerbase at large, who have each been too busy to iterate the same 10 concepts for a decade to come up with new ideas.

Edited June 10, 2021 by arrdef

[Yoak]

1 hour ago, TinPan said:

still curious to hear what the server administration has to say in regards to this thread.

same

[Smilesville]

41 minutes ago, arrdef said:

No DM in the history of tabletop is only ever a DM who never plays a character. It's fun to DM but it gets old and sometimes you want to jump in on the action for a game.

They're free to do so at any time.  Just not while they're also capable of making judgments as a staff member. They can resign for a few months, then come back.

 

42 minutes ago, arrdef said:

The pervasive focus on money is simply a consequence of a lack of creativity from both management and the playerbase at large, who have each been too busy to iterate the same 10 concepts for a decade to come up with new ideas.

Creative businesses sprout up all the time - the problem is that they die because nobody patronizes them, then those creative players find greener pastures that reward their creativity.

 

The lack of creativity didn't cause the system. The system causes the lack of creativity.

 

[maramizo]

58 minutes ago, arrdef said:

(1) I don't think any of you have been part of any real life tabletop community if you think confining admins to an OOC directing role on the server is acceptable.

(2) No DM in the history of tabletop is only ever a DM who never plays a character. It's fun to DM but it gets old and sometimes you want to jump in on the action for a game. Admins are simply volunteering a part of their gametime to help players and enforce rules.

 

(3) The pervasive focus on money is simply a consequence of a lack of creativity from both management and the playerbase at large, who have each been too busy to iterate the same 10 concepts for a decade to come up with new ideas.

1. Factually false.
2. Huh? Our group has literally never had their DM change at any single campaign. We can switch up who the DM is at different campaigns, but for the most part, we have a favorite DM and that person enjoys being the DM. You don't just switch up who the DM is halfway through a campaign (you could, but it'd be weird, the storyline and the vision would change). Staff can always take LoAs to do things they want and have someone else replace them. In fact, if you want to argue, you can easily make a point that the even with a reduced amount of staff, given they don't need to RP anymore on their own main alts, they'd have way more time to focus on the actual players.
3.  No, it's because money in game is used so that you can roleplay the things  you want to roleplay. It's that simple.

[ScottieP]

9 hours ago, Smilesville said:

Creative businesses sprout up all the time - the problem is that they die because nobody patronizes them, then those creative players find greener pastures that reward their creativity.

 

The lack of creativity didn't cause the system. The system causes the lack of creativity.

 

Exactly.

Talking about creative businesses ideas: Events / Modelling Agency / Brand publishing and actually developing / what else?

Those are the venues that my character is involved with and guess what? Not a single one has given my character any income in the past 2 months, in fact 2 of the 3 has not even properly started because:

 

1. Modelling Agency, you do not get money for this like you would IRL and so it has to be LFM funded otherwise? I haven't found an answer to this.

Brand publishing, developing and trying to get it out there for sale? Yea IRL we can sell clothes/items/whatever it is and make some profit, here? Nobody will buy that and if then it's only limited to those active players and only 1% of them might pay 500$-1000$ which well is not much and so it has to be LFM funded otherwise I don't see any other solutions as to it being rewarded for us the content creators so to say. Think about Hawaiian Snow I am still unsure how they make their money to be honest but I can only guess that some portion was made through selling the mods before 1.1 but now that everyone can use it it should be supported somehow.

 

2. In order for it to be supported by LFM funding you need to show your character's roleplay(thread) and your team and if there is someone that they don't like? It's over. In addition to that you need a thread for whatever you are doing and you need to show some activity they say but it usually takes weeks or in some cases months as you might know and doing all of that for free? Nobody is up for that, people have denied me more times than you'd think "If there is money I am there if not? Forget about it." 

 

3. All of these venues need admin support as big and complex as they sound, you need a virtual property and actual admins to take care of live stuff happening at the time of the event for the events and stuff gets very complicated once someone notices that you are trying to produce something for the community and decides to ruin it for their own sake or just to "Develop their char", "Oh guys look how cool I am I stopped a festival from happening ".          -_-' . Believe me this happened more than once for us and it's totally annoying and not cool, I almost lost the nerves.

 

We have tried to organize events without the support of admins and believe me or not, while for the players it might have gone alright for us it was a complete disaster and it just ruined our mood completely as of how it went instead of how it could go. Bodies here and there, people breaking rules and so on. People just don't listen unless there is an admin to slap them and say "Hey, you have to behave or you are risking a punishment here."

 

4. The amount of money you earn from let's say the events I am doing? It could mean a huge income in a month or nothing, if you do organize any kind of event there is on the map you can make mad money, especially if you are allowed to get the Yacht, a mansion and a couple of places for a "one time thing" you can make a decent amount but that doesn't happen as easily as you'd think. The festivals that I am organizing take months to organize due to admins taking much time to agree on supporting the event and also if it were to me only I could do it tomorrow but that's not the point. I have multiple people that work together with me and we are looking for places, sometimes it's just discouraging like 6 months ago when we found 1 place, everything got allowed by PM and LS GOV and then came some Senator to ruin it all, making up a bill in matter of seconds after the moment and prohibited the only few places there are to make festivals and then we went for another place which again PM accepted and then it was ruined by some gangster who god knows how he found out, again pushing the time and when you have such an event happening once every 2-3 months it means you are only getting paid then and the pay is not high as you all might know the prices of tickets are skyrocketing but in the end we, the ones who organize it struggle to make everyone get paid fairly as it's just not too much money, we barely make any ourselves which is discouraging for us because our characters indeed need to pay for their bread every day. I have tried to get a mansion lately for this one event everyone has been asking me about but I am struggling to get permissions and this has been going on for over a month and admins have stopped responding me which is again, slowing me and I have also received a message where it says that I should rather stick to what I am doing than trying to make more but why should I stick only to one venue when it does not bring me enough if any income?

 

5. Now that @maramizo is also active in this thread I might tag you as on the last thread you said that your diner is making $600,000/month and mortgaging company $200,000/month and illegal activities as +. Well I would like to point out that this is exactly why you guys say that people become millionaires, the $200,000 on start has $800,000 to go for a million and that's like 4x the starting point which is not as easy to make but once you get a business script and start abusing it it's easy. You would never have the income of $600,000/month from a diner irl(let me do some maths for you. 40k/2 days is the limit, you'd need to hit that every single time to reach 600k/month which I don't believe you do unless you have a faction or closed circle to "abuse") and it's just unrealistic comparing to my venues I should be making well over 1m$ on a yearly basis but I don't while you are making around that in a single month which is a bit too much considering the difference between the two. 

 

I am sorry about this big wall of text but I feel like it is needed and if you really want to change something about the economy you should encourage more player-run businesses/concepts that with whom you can talk about/ keep up roleplay quality based on RP<-> Reward instead of ignoring them and the fact that it sucks as it is, if you manage to make that somehow realistic and fair you can remove the scripts they will not be needed.

 

[maramizo]

1 hour ago, ScottieP said:

Now that @maramizo is also active in this thread I might tag you as on the last thread you said that your diner is making $600,000/month and mortgaging company $200,000/month and illegal activities as +. Well I would like to point out that this is exactly why you guys say that people become millionaires, the $200,000 on start has $800,000 to go for a million and that's like 4x the starting point which is not as easy to make but once you get a business script and start abusing it it's easy. You would never have the income of $600,000/month from a diner irl(let me do some maths for you. 40k/2 days is the limit, you'd need to hit that every single time to reach 600k/month which I don't believe you do unless you have a faction or closed circle to "abuse") and it's just unrealistic comparing to my venues I should be making well over 1m$ on a yearly basis but I don't while you are making around that in a single month which is a bit too much considering the difference between the two. 

 

There's no abuse there, I assure you. I encourage any PM member to see exactly who's walking into our diner. When you have a diner open up for around 12 hours daily, is it really a surprise that we're always hitting the cap?