Mission Row & Investigative Holds

[DLimit]

7 minutes ago, Alyssa McCarthy said:

 

No set time limits as you said yourself, those times are reasonable. It wouldn't be reasonable to detain someone at the roadside for a potential DUI any longer than it takes to complete a sobriety test and confirm / refute probable cause.

 

They can't move you anywhere, because they've gone beyond detaining you and need to arrest you, unless of course, you volunteer to freely.

 

Try Here: https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/civil-rights/unlawful-detention/

 

To seize a person simply means to seize their Right to mobility. They can still transport the person, if deemed reasonable. Hence, if it is reasonable to place a person inside of a cell, then they will.  Hence, the term "Investigative Detention" or "Investigative Hold".

Edited March 26, 2021 by DLimit

[Alyssa McCarthy]

7 minutes ago, Bauer said:

This isn't what we use investigatory holds for...

I realize what they are used for, that doesn't make them legal.

 

The fact that PD use these (as is being described), is a result of IC penal codes and IC law violating the IC US constitution.

 

If there is an OOC rule that overrides the US constitution or the IC constitution needs to be changed, then that needs adding to the server rules, otherwise LEO's are just getting a free pass that is illegal at a federal level.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Alyssa McCarthy

[Florida]

Just now, DLimit said:

To seize a person simply means to seize their Right to mobility. They can still transport the person, if deemed reasonable. Hence, if it is reasonable to place a person inside of a cell, then they will.  Hence, the term "Investigative Detention" or "Investigative Hold".

 

You're wrong again.. detaining people does NOT grant you the right to transport them. You must have PC to take them into custody for that.

[Sixty]

@Bauer Agreed on the OOC necessity, for sure. It’s a fine line though that kind of oversteps IC authority and can be abused. I think an update should happen that requires something on the investigative/IC paperwork that lists the probable cause for arrest. That way there’s a checks and balances system IC’ly in-case there’s a bad apple that just throws them in there. Would also help create a potential legal battle should a cop do this incorrectly. That’s all I was really getting to at the end of the day. Ensures the arrest is legitimate and doesn’t really mess with the system, but now covers the angle of an illegal arrest IC’ly.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Sixty

[Bauer]

1 minute ago, Alyssa McCarthy said:

If there is an OOC rule that overrides the US constitution or the IC constitution needs to be changed, then that needs adding to the server rules, otherwise LEO's are just getting a free pass that is illegal at a federal level.

Due to the way the game works we can't always follow every federal law exactly. If you don't understand why that is then I can't help you.

[DLimit]

1 minute ago, Florida said:

 

You're wrong again.. detaining people does NOT grant you the right to transport them. You must have PC to take them into custody for that.

Guess the Law doesn't apply to protestors or migrants, then. Back in circles, here.

[Jedai]

44 minutes ago, Florida said:

 

So there's no probable cause affidavit or justification for taking somebody into custody? You just arrest them because somebody asked you to?

 

That's illegal.

As someone had explained earlier. Most investigative holds are done by Detectives more than regular patrol staff. The use of a 48 hour hold which was 72 hours at first btw is to allow for the finalization of formal charges on a suspect you already have probable cause for.

 

Obviously the system is not perfect but typically at the patrol officer level, you're a taxi. Now more astute officers will ask why do I have this guy in my car so they can be aware of what's going on at a surface level but this ain't always the case. 

 

Overall as Liquicity pointed out earlier, it's more to assist with ooc time constraints more than IC ones but it DOES get used too liberally. 

[Alyssa McCarthy]

1 minute ago, Bauer said:

Due to the way the game works we can't always follow every federal law exactly. If you don't understand why that is then I can't help you.

It's a fair expectation from players that the US constitution is the US constitution, because we've an entire legal system that quotes and uses historic supreme court rulings as part of case law.

 

OOC if there is a need for activity to take place that has to be so because it's a game, then a ruling needs to be made public somewhere so that we're all playing knowing the same rules rather than shifting goalposts.

If you can't understand that, I can't help you either.

[Florida]

Just now, Jedai said:

As someone had explained earlier. Most investigative holds are done by Detectives more than regular patrol staff. The use of a 48 hour hold which was 72 hours at first btw is to allow for the finalization of formal charges on a suspect you already have probable cause for.

 

Obviously the system is not perfect but typically at the patrol officer level, you're a taxi. Now more astute officers will ask why do I have this guy in my car so they can be aware of what's going on at a surface level but this ain't always the case. 

 

Overall as Liquicity pointed out earlier, it's more to assist with ooc time constraints more than IC ones but it DOES get used too liberally. 

 

I'm completely good with that, because like you said the Detectives already have probable cause for their arrest. I get that completely. The only thing we're all seeing as an issue is if Investigative Holds are issued without probable cause, just with suspicion they're involved in the crime.

[Sixty]

6 minutes ago, Jedai said:

As someone had explained earlier. Most investigative holds are done by Detectives more than regular patrol staff. The use of a 48 hour hold which was 72 hours at first btw is to allow for the finalization of formal charges on a suspect you already have probable cause for.

 

Obviously the system is not perfect but typically at the patrol officer level, you're a taxi. Now more astute officers will ask why do I have this guy in my car so they can be aware of what's going on at a surface level but this ain't always the case. 

 

Overall as Liquicity pointed out earlier, it's more to assist with ooc time constraints more than IC ones but it DOES get used too liberally. 

Are there not times where regular patrol uses the investigative hold? My endgame is basically ensuring at least they are held to a standard. Simple addition would be to add an area to list probable cause on the investigative paperwork. Even if it is mainly for OOC purposes, this should still be required. As people have implied, this isn’t currently happening and it should be. That way there’s a checks and balances system to using the investigative hold. As discussed, reasonable suspicion is not enough to put someone in a cell for 48 hours. It has to be probable cause. If this is being used too liberally, maybe this small change could help. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Sixty