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Updating rules and perception around shooting in public areas / daylight / or near cameras


bonk

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21 minutes ago, Ink said:

You can say "this escalation was totally reasonable" but would you then say "man it's no fun that my character ends up in prison for life because of this, that's not fair, I'm just trying to RP a criminal, it's really hard to RP a criminal on GTA:W already, we have nothing to RP, it's because of my timezone that I executed that guy like a sick dog on his knees on one of the busiest arterial avenues in the entire city."

That's crazy, because number 1. You don't even know me, 2. I could really careless if my character gets locked up for life, as jail RP is some of the best of RP I've had on this server since it's release last year and the 3 years I've been on the server, 3. It has nothing to do with my time zone. 

 

Fact of the matter is, the precedent that was set with the ruling. That people can just go around acting without fear because those that would otherwise regulate them fear admin punishment. 

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I think the rule should be changed, while I do agree just saying that you RP your character not being very intelligent or not really caring about the consequences of his actions is a lackluster excuse I will say this: When it comes to killing someone (as said case by case basis) there are times when the desire to kill a certain person are higher than they would be with killing someone because of gang beef or something. For example, if someone shot and killed three of my very close friends, my character would want to kill that man not really caring about what happens after that. However, when it comes to my character just wanting to do a hit or retaliate on an opposite faction/group because of a shooting that didn't result in any deaths he would more just wait until the most convenient time to do the hit. But this is besides the point because everybody will have different reasons for wanting to kill a person/people and I think that should be accounting for during a FR/In game report. If the person has a good explanation for them killing someone in broad daylight I think that they should be able to get away with it as this happens A LOT in real life as well as in L.A. which GTAW is based off of. 

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It's beyond me, how does the time of day reflect on role play quality?

 

With that, Los Angeles is marked as one of the most surveilled cities on Earth according to this article. There are approximately 5.65 cameras for every 1000 people living there. That does not include private CCTVs. Nearly most crimes you will do is gonna be recorded by some sort of CCTV. That cannot be used as a valid excuse.

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Just now, Blowin' Hollows said:

It's beyond me, how does the time of day reflect on role play quality?

 

With that, Los Angeles is marked as one of the most surveilled cities on Earth according to this article. There are approximately 5.65 cameras for every 1000 people living there. That does not include private CCTVs. Nearly most crimes you will do is gonna be recorded by some sort of CCTV. That cannot be used as a valid excuse.

I agree, it's pretty difficult to avoid CCTV, regardless of where you are and I honestly think that the rule about continuity just is used when it benefits a certain party and not fairly implemented.

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Going to just quote what @heat465 said previously, as it echoes my stance on the issue after thinking about it more.

 

Quote

Personally I don't mind this as long as the roleplay itself is good but the way I see it, if you started allowing this kind of roleplay more then players would "roleplay" these actions more often to a point where it'd lower the overall quality of such roleplay.  Some players, not all, will look for the path of least resistance OOCly and just attack people with no regard for how its roleplayed and this would encourage it if admins were less lenient, regardless of whether they do it for a good reason or not.

 

I imagine some of the admins don't see the problem with the roleplay personally but likely have to act accordingly to keep the above from happening.

 

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I agree with the previous poster @Inkthat for this to work there has to be some sort of counter balance.  The consequences and chances of being caught are simply to low.

 

I work in JSA,and I have seen many good examples of  rolepalyers incriminating themselves ooc with very detailed statements to support the police evidence gathering process.

 

But if admin can't use the location and tod argument then this should go further to actually submitting a witness report and 911 call on yourself to report the crime (not ic, but ooc).  It's completely doable and it takes the issue IC.  If you shoot in Legion Square then 100% the cops are going to get called .

 

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21 hours ago, Blowin' Hollows said:

To squeeze what I had said in a couple words for those who do not have heaps of time to read my essays, this is what I inherently said:

 

Admins using the excuse "Why did you shoot in broad daylight with cameras present?" should be disallowed during in game and forum reports because this is something that is nonsensical. It's not something that exists in real life. As described in the thread, criminals are not smart. They can be clumsy, and with Los Santos = Los Angeles, LA is one of the most watched cities on Earth, so you will 9/10 have a camera watching your deed. Have a section in the admin handbook/let it be known for the trial admins that are learning the ropes that this is not an appropriate question to beg when dealing with a report. Why did I shoot? Because my character chose to at this time and day. It's an IC issue. Let the role play stem. If a detective from either PD/SD want to take handle on a shooting case, let them. Don't punish a player because PD/SD cannot do their job, even if there's a lack of evidence, cases can go cold. And most certainly don't make administrators micromanage more things than they need to, as that is what it feels like it is from a players perspective.

 

To close it off. There are also OOC factors such as "I can only log in during the day as I work during the night, am I barred from doing any illegal role play with my character?" and so on.

 

A blanket rule is never a good idea and discretion is and should always be required.

 

While I agree, IG times should be less important when it comes to businesses opening and what RP can / can't happen (due to real world TZ's), you should never tie the hands of admins.

 

Besides, this works both ways and there will be a very real concern should something like this be implemented.

 

I'm all for more realism and more IC punishments for IC crimes, when those people committing the crimes do so realistically - i.e. they happen in realistic locations, for realistic reasons and have either been realistically planned or escalated.

 

While it may not be the intention of your post, the justification 'I wanted to shoot' suddenly becomes a viable excuse for almost any issue involving a shooting & that's an incredibly bad position to find ourselves in.

 

For instance, how many arguments do you think happen in Los Angeles every day, a city with a population of millions? The answer must me tens of thousands.

 

How many shootings happen in Los Angeles every day? 4-5.

 

Gangs do not commit daily shootings in LA. If they did, they'd have made each other extinct long ago, yet gangs still exist.

 

I'm making this point because you use RL as an argument to make your point, however it's very clear that despite crime being very real in a city like LA, people are far less prone to shoot someone. If you are going to be intellectually honest in this discussion, you can't just brush over facts that are counter to the point you are trying to make.

 

Why is it relevant? Many reasons, but consider just this. In LA, the PD dept is far bigger than we have on GTA:W, has far fewer shootings to deal with and they have far more resources at their availability. Just think about what that actually means while you're stating phrases such as 'Don't punish a player because PD/SD cannot do their job' - that's not a reasonable stance to have given the amount of unrealistic portrayal is taking place by the vast majority of shooters in LS.

 

TLDR; it's far more complicated and not a good idea to tie admins hands, but I do agree that shootings do happen in daylight, and they do happen in front of CCTV - so each case needs to be considered on it's own individual merits.

Edited by Alyssa McCarthy
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I am onboard with this...

 

...as long as the approach to prison time is revamped to instill a very real fear of being caught. More OOC leniency with crime being committed is fine if A) prison sentences are increased in OOC length, and B) a portion of that prison sentence must be roleplayed IC, the portion being relative to the crime. 

 

People should be allowed to be stupid, but their stupidity should realistically lead to them being taken off the streets. With real, meaningful prison sentences, there will be more consideration and hesitation for the crime being committed, and less criminals on the streets actively engaging in illegal activities.

 

That, and it will give the prison scene a much needed population spike.

Edited by DasFroggy
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On 3/8/2021 at 6:06 AM, Blowin' Hollows said:

And most certainly don't make administrators micromanage more things than they need to, as that is what it feels like it is from a players perspective.

Not that it would be considered micromanaging but this suggestion would end up leading to more reports for admins to deal with.  Sure, shootings in broad daylight in clear view of cameras happen IRL, but this isn't real life.  There has to be some balance when it comes to realistic roleplay and fairness, otherwise it'd eventually lead to the decline of the server.  No matter how much good intentions you have suggesting this, some players will see this as a cheaper way of committing whatever crime they're doing, purely from the OOC thought of "admins can't use this excuse now", regardless of what their IC reasoning is.  More reports would happen, leading to more issues that admins would have to work out than they already deal with.

 

Like I mentioned in the discussion before, I don't actually mind this happening if it got accepted since I also agree that admins might be getting too involved in perfectly acceptable roleplay sometimes but what I said above would likely happen if it did get accepted.

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I find it awfully ironic how people are citing LA crime rates as a reason to commit crime 24/7, rob and kill constantly because well "My character is a criminal!".  It's gotten to a point where living in LS is like living in Somalia, if you're alone not near your car, you're never safe. In LA you could just as easily sit on the pier for hours by yourself and never even consider being kidnapped by two masked men so they can take your phone and 600 dollars, but here it happens all the time becuase people think rping a criminal means being a crime bot who has no other motivation other than to commit because that's why they exist. 

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