Business licensing and it's current state

[Mecovy]

1 hour ago, Smilesville said:

It's definitely happened - we even have proof.

 

Not only did they close the business immediately and blockade the parking lot with police cars - they went as far as to order the police to bust the door down and seize all the alcohol inside the building. This isn't the fault of the police either; many of them refused to comply with the outlandish demands of the licensing officials until Rockford himself strolled down to the front of the business and started threatening pensions of the officers in charge. It was an e-peen swinging shitshow heralded as an example of what business licensing should be. There were plenty more problems with Rockford and Co than "they left and wouldn't let us use the things."

 

Business licensing should never come back.

oh no, big bad retired mayor rockford did something years ago so it effects us now! 😮😱

Dude, I'm trying to piece together the argument that you're putting together. Why would we intentionally break from realism so businesses can appear out of thin air without any registration or licensing requirements? Everyone agree's the prices are too high so they're being lowered but this is taking it way too far.

 

Not only do businesses and roleplayers get the opportunity to go down various routes of white collar crime by evading taxes/licenses, but it also increases the roleplay of the government. Two absolute wins.

 

And yes, things happened horrifically in the past, no one is ignoring that. But this is an entirely different administration in city government, a competent group of people who know exactly what they're doing. A group of people who have taken extensive time to work on the system to make sure its fair and correct. The prices were an oversight which parties have admitted happened due to various factors. This type of anarchy approach, or more correctly called "laissez faire", has historically been disastrous and will pan out the same way here.

 

-edit- I know this all sounds toxic of me, its not intended that way. I'm trying to grasp what you're suggesting. This isn't any form of personal attack, or meant to be aggressively toxic in the point it's trying to set across.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Mecovy

[Trupiano]

Business Licenses would be great if the rest of the economy wasn't dogshit. People don't eat out like they do in real life, they don't buy goods like they would in real life and they don't drink like they do in real life. So effectively it's impossible to make money the way a business normally would in real life. It doesn't make sense to force businesses to spend what equals 50%+ of their earnings on a piece of paper that's likely never going to come into play. 

 

The most recent roll out was also, a disaster. I for one had no clue they had been reimplemented. There was a post in discord about registering your business and during that process there was brief mention of licenses but from my understanding at the time it was something that would be implemented at a later date, not in the next few days. It's additionally frustrating to have it locked behind another forum. I'm sorry, but I really don't want to make another forum account for FD's forums and another just for the Gov forums only to use them once. I think it would be much easier for everyone if these systems were offered through the character section of the UCP.

[Smilesville]

45 minutes ago, Mecovy said:

oh no, big bad retired mayor rockford did something years ago so it effects us now! 😮😱

Dude, I'm trying to piece together the argument that you're putting together. Why would we intentionally break from realism so businesses can appear out of thin air without any registration or licensing requirements? Everyone agree's the prices are too high so they're being lowered but this is taking it way too far.

The argument I'm piecing together is that a system of business licensing mirroring the one that failed in the past is destined for failure.

 

The flippancy with which you refer to the incident seems to indicate we haven't learned a thing from it, and you know what they say about history repeating itself. The prices themselves are secondary to the issue concerning whether we should implement needlessly pedantic business licensing systems in the first place. We seem to be so focused on "how" that we've forgotten to ask "why" and "should."

 

49 minutes ago, Mecovy said:

Not only do businesses and roleplayers get the opportunity to go down various routes of white collar crime by evading taxes/licenses, but it also increases the roleplay of the government. Two absolute wins.

And yes, things happened horrifically in the past, no one is ignoring that. But this is an entirely different administration in city government, a competent group of people who know exactly what they're doing. A group of people who have taken extensive time to work on the system to make sure its fair and correct. The prices were an oversight which parties have admitted happened due to various factors. This type of anarchy approach, or more correctly called "laissez faire", has historically been disastrous and will pan out the same way here.

The same argument is made with regards to scripted seatbelts, but the end result was far different - it essentially came down to whether you would be penalized financially if you OOCly forgot to type /sb every time you got into your car; despite promises of engaging the community and police with low level traffic violations to break up the fact that every traffic stop would turn into a high speed chase, the predictable result was a joyless cash grab. This licensing system will boil down to remembering the exact date at which you have to funnel money into the license and little else.

 

Can you name a single instance in which the previous licensing administration fostered roleplay around tax/license evasion? What about government roleplay, barring the five minute mandatory inspections (that took months to schedule) of businesses? My position is that your claims are far too optimistic considering what we witnessed last time.

 

I've yet to see a single way in which the new system would differ from the old beyond "we have different people." Knowing the ways in which the system was abused prior by an individual hand-picked by server management for the role, can you understand why players don't see any assurances this won't turn out the exact same way?

 

The price issue is just a symptom of the underlying problem - not only do the individuals crafting (and the staff accepting) the proposals seem to be completely out of touch with the circumstances facing server businesses at large, they don't seem to have learned from the mistakes of the past.

 

I won't hear talk about the political system providing checks and balances on licensing either - it's still very much in its infancy, with only one political party represented despite the election outcome, no update on the city charter in half a year, and a general lack of activity across the board. These were all problems we had with the last iteration of the city government but they're no closer to being fixed - this opinion of mine isn't new. Barring the open carry and marijuana debacles, I struggle to think of what else they've been able to accomplish except for the elections themselves.

 

tl;dr The server doesn't need business licensing, isn't ready for business licensing, and probably won't be able to implement it without destroying the RP motive. The only people who'll own businesses are the folks who bought them via "/ad Buying any business" and grind script cash through them. For a server that alleges to focus on RP, this is not the way.

[DLimit]

4 hours ago, shareef2 said:

Shutting down a business due to multiple infractions is not the same as strolling into a business and shouting "Out! Out I say!" 

 

There's a legal process on both ends for such penalties to occur. We never got to just shut business down, at least not when I was a member, there was a whole process including evidence gathering and requests, etc, and then at the end it's all up to whether law enforcement assists or not. 

On my end, my character was informed to cease all operations until the license is obtained. Hence, closing down the business, on sight, based on one infraction. Failure to close down the business until the license was obtained would result in police intervention.

You're over-exaggerating with the "shouting" claim, ignoring the initial claim that businesses were closed on sight for failing to conduct the necessary paperwork, even as a first-time infraction.

I've even had situations where they did waltz into the store and ask everyone to leave as the business was not licensed... literally. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by DLimit

[MCB666]

seriously, what the actual fuck are these prices. i agree they need to be lowered especially in this current ingame market.

[Ink]

One of my earliest experiences on this server of seeing the government at play was a merry roleplay at Rob's Liquors in Vespucci. While my character was hanging out there, a government official (intentionally roleplayed as a slimy, unpleasant man) showed up and proceeded to shut down the business and levy a bunch of fines on the business owner for operating. While it created some roleplay, it also stirred up a bit of a derailing storm. I saw that government official show up to other businesses while they're open to similarly tussle with them over legal pedantry, almost always ending in the business being shut down.

 

I understand what Smilesville is saying, and I'm open-minded to other solutions. 

Here's what I see as a problem:

Currently, businesses are operated in wildly inconsistent ways across the server. Many businesses brazenly break the law on a regular basis, partially because their owners don't know the law OOCly, but also partially because many of these businesses are run by literal gangsters and rogues. To me, this is highly unrealistic and immersion breaking in a heavy RP server. Businesses feel so abstracted at this point that they're almost comical on an IC level, there's no intentionality in the vast majority of businesses on this server. it's all slapdash, low effort, cookie cutter, and tacked on in easily 60+% of the businesses we have on this server.

 

Frankly, if a business licensing system weeds out half the bars and night clubs on this server because their owners are too OOCly lazy to go through a 30-minute licensing process for their business to handle liquor, GTA:W would not come out as a loser; the community would win as a result of this. We have so many garbage generic businesses on this server which are doing nothing but diluting the market and taking away the spotlight from the businesses run by passionate roleplayers who give a shit. I'd rather have 5 awesome, distinct, flavorful, well-staffed night clubs which open on a regular basis rather than 20 shitty, generic, copy/paste, unoriginal clubs which are all clawing at each other's throats opening at the same time with fly-by-night staffing usually recruited last minute over "/ad Looking for bartender right now!!!!"

 

Smilesville raises some excellent concerns, issues which the current Department of Finance should be taking note on. I also agree, despite arguing for more regulation and more control, that we should carefully toe the line against being OOCly frustrating. 

 

But Smilesville, I will also posit: This is a heavy RP server. A business is not a car. We're not saying you need to go and fill out an hour of paperwork and stand in a line in the DMV for 3 hours to drive your car. We're talking about businesses, of which there are a relatively limited supply, and which require a lot of OOC dedication to succeed. I am 100% with you that it sucks when someone crashes through the wall of your business and decides to just rape your entire roleplay and waste your time and effort (see: extortion). 

 

But I'm not sure I fully side with where your argument is coming from. The people who had their businesses shut down neglected their licensing. This isn't a difficult process. I filled out the registration for both of my businesses and I'd say the entire process took about 10 minutes on my part. Licenses? Probably will take another 20-30 minutes depending on how annoying they make the application. That's fine with me. I spend HOURS running my character's businesses on a weekly basis, literally 20-30 minutes is the amount of time it takes my character to have a roleplay of smoking a cigarette outside with some friends. I agree that the prices are too high, everyone agrees that the prices are too high. We can stop talking about the prices. Those are being lowered. Nervous suggested 10% of what is proposed. 

 

Business licensing should be about the roleplay behind the business, not serving as a money sink. We don't want to punish business RPers for RPing, so don't.

 

Look, I can ramble on this a little longer, but let me leave off on this foot: We can either deal with shitty businesses by OOC management or IC management. OOC management is great and all, but it's immersion-breaking because decisions which affect RP (often times RP which has been going for a while) just come out of "nowhere" and you have no way to RP it, it relies heavily on people snitching on one another OOCly (so more room for toxicity), and it keeps admins in the role of playing babysitter with everyone's RP. It's also not a sustainable system. I'd personally rather see more of our server's quality control done ICly when possible. Why?

• One, it serves as an IC conflicit which does NOT involve guns, shooting, stabbing, robbing, or whatever the fuck, and that's a good thing for this server's RP. Conflict drives roleplay, and legal RP currently has very little conflict because so much of our IC conflicts are taken OOCly before they can even begin with Property Managment, RPQ, and more.
• Two, it's more fun for the people involved. Unless you're a tyrannical person with low self-esteem, spending your hours on a video game telling people what they can and can't do and arguing about it for days is not fun. Roleplaying it all instead, however, allows for a lot more room for both sides to get entertainment out of it. 
• Three, it creates a more immersive, heavy RP experience, and opens opportunities for more character types. Rather than abstracting businesses even further and saving most of their management to OOC administration, it creates a demand for consultants, attorneys, politicians, advocates, lobbyists, and more. Infancy or not, this is one of the most important developments for this server to step even further away from being a cops, robbers, and clubrats "heavy RP" server.

 

If people are dicks with their RP, you can report them. If it feels like a government official is ICly just going around shitting on people's RP, it's fair to reach out to their admin handlers and be like "this isn't fun." But expecting that's what will happen right off the bat and not allowing this idea to develop is very pessimistic. 

[eTaylor]

Having w'rk'd the longest day, i may finally retireth from the tav'rn and closeth mine own dealings.  Eventful the present day wast, quite so.  F'r in between gangland shootings and ext'rtionists from the far east i wast all but joyous to seeth the r'd coat'd official from the financeth department.  Demand'd licenses that gent hath said, £75. 000 that gent hath said.  Alas, a pity.  F'r did cost in lab'r wages and all has't hath left dram to scrounge.  The r'd coat'd thief didst not careth, f'r that gent hath said; “out! out i sayeth!” hencef'rth the tav'rn is nay m're f'r crimes 'gainst the gov'rn'r. 
 

And now, before I am hanged from the neck until dead; why the hell does city licensing have to cost so much? What are these numbers based on? This is literally legalized extortion, and this has nothing to do with “realism”. An IC issue perhaps, but certainly disappointing nonetheless. 

[Fancy Toothpaste]

We're also forgetting the fact that people literally pay real life money in the form of donations to the server in order to run their business in the first place (/blip and /bad rights). The more inconvenient you make it to run a business, the less likely people will even bother and the less roleplay you'll have on the server.

 

If I have a business that hardly breaks even, is just there to enrich my roleplay and the roleplay of others and I pay real money to do this, is it fair to force me to run this business all the time just to break even?

Right now I lease a general goods script business for 15k a month. With the original 30k per month lisence cost, that'd bring my bare-bones opporation costs to 25k a month. That wouldn't be so bad if I earned the 1k per entrence, but I don't. I make 4k per hour of active roleplay which always ends up taking more time depending on how busy my business is, or how much I feel like roleplaying with myself. Throw in the cost of ordering components as a cherry on top, and suddenly the whole thing just doesn't seem all that enticing to opporate. I could charge people way more for goods in an attempt to pinch pennies, but how does that help the roleplay of myself and others?

What happens if a person is being actively extorted every week? What happens if a person has a real-life job and can't constantly run their business? What happens if a business employs multiple players and needs them to opporate? I'm a single person running a single business. I couldn't really imagine if my business needed multiple staff-members.

 

I feel that these lisences have been constructed with the intention of punishing certain businesses that make "too much money" without realizing that they also harm many other businesses and players on the server. As it stands, the lisences  decentivise people to open and opporate unique businesses that provide roleplay without making an exceptional profit. There are better ways.

[Momo's Revenge]

Server would be better off not shafting business owners. This does not help people that run niche businesses that don't rake in cash. Business owners already got to:

- Pay for scripts.

- Pay for decorating.

- Pay for donator.

- Put in their time and effort.

- Struggle to find reliable help.

 

General conduct licenses are stupid and adding additional costs on top of the mountainous investment isn't doing anything but making businesses less generous/hinder creativity. I already feel discouraged having to donate because of the p2w approach the business ad system has. It is also demotivating finding people to actually work the business if you aren't X type of business. Why? Because they come and go to different stuff, never show up to begin with or have meh rp.  Nothing is out of "thin air". Arguing against the bonus is also silly. 

General licenses are fine so long as they do not cost anything. The goal should be to catalog the businesses and regulate if the law is broken. Not slap money sinks left and right when the script system itself already works that way. Want to fix something administration? How about that I have to pay $15 a month to actually have a chance to compete. My business is really the only reason I play this server anymore. I work a full time job, like to have a life and do my business rp to relax. I already had to shell out hundreds of thousands to get it going, that subscription, put in my time opening which may get me anywhere between zero customers to nearing the max if I open a few times (Unlikely considering I have other shit to do...).... You get the picture, the people providing RP are not the problem. The people who are the problem are the ones that do nothing but drive around in race cars.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Momo's Revenge

[eTaylor]

17 minutes ago, Momo's Revenge said:

Server would be better off not shafting business owners. This does not help people that run niche businesses that don't rake in cash. Business owners already got to:

- Pay for scripts.

- Pay for decorating.

- Pay for donator.

- Put in their time and effort.

- Struggle to find reliable help.

 

General conduct licenses are stupid and adding additional costs on top of the mountainous investment isn't doing anything but making businesses less generous/hinder creativity. I already feel discouraged having to donate because of the p2w approach the business ad system has. It is also demotivating finding people to actually work the business if you aren't X type of business. Why? Because they come and go to different stuff, never show up to begin with or have meh rp.  Nothing is out of "thin air". Arguing against the bonus is also silly. 

General licenses are fine so long as they do not cost anything. The goal should be to catalog the businesses and regulate if the law is broken. Not slap money sinks left and right when the script system itself already works that way. Want to fix something administration? How about that I have to pay $15 a month to actually have a chance to compete. My business is really the only reason I play this server anymore. I work a full time job, like to have a life and do my business rp to relax. I already had to shell out hundreds of thousands to get it going, that subscription, put in my time opening which may get me anywhere between zero customers to nearing the max if I open a few times (Unlikely considering I have other shit to do...).... You get the picture, the people providing RP are not the problem. The people who are the problem are the ones that do nothing but drive around in race cars.

Sometimes a lot of things just feel like they’re made only for the players who have no time constraints, and that you are genuinely punished for not playing 5 hours every single day.