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Cease outside CK Applications


Red.

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3 hours ago, Redman. said:

I respect your opinion and firmly disagree with it for the reasons stated coupled with the input/testimony from experience and involvement that others provided.

 

Again, I'm cool with some sort of CK system. I don't think what it is now is it.

the main problem i see is with the ck appeal process, the shit takes too long. If you're gonna let mfs CK somebody's character, you should respond quick if it's disputed so that you can get to the bottom of it fast.

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I'm all for a CK system since I think it is needed, however it's quite clear that the current one needs some improvements. I think the first step should be handling the appeals in a matter of days, or as soon as possible. Many people could end up losing motivation if they have to wait for a month or even longer to receive an answer.

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9 hours ago, Garras Up said:

The fact that it's their job means nothing in the end, do you think some MS-13 OG who's being investigated and is facing life in prison / terrorism charges cares that it's just the investigator's job?

The fact that you cite the most psychopathic and dangerous organization in the world to justify repeated CK applications across the server and a variety of factions exemplifies that several individuals on this server do not have a realistic understanding of criminality in the United States and the ramifications of attacking a law enforcement officer. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Garras Up said:

I'm talking about actually investigating viciously violent criminal organizations and mafias. MS-13 in New York for example is known to put kill-orders and contracts out on detectives.

Once again, citing the world's most dangerous organization to afford every faction on this server to act like this exemplifies a serious lack of understanding of criminality. Not only do those contracts never come into fruition, any attack on law enforcement personnel is met with serious retribution. 

 

9 hours ago, Garras Up said:

I recently lost a character that was dear to me as a result of a poorly RPed (on my victim's part) scene which I was eventually arrested for. As a result, my character was put into prison permanently, meaning I'll never be allowed to rp said character outside of jail again.  What would be unfair would be the fact that SD/PD could take my character from me, but I can't take their character from them.

You do not have a character taken from you. Your character was caught committing a crime and is sent to prison for life because he was caught committing that crime. You have taken the decision that your character is not worth roleplaying with again simply because what happened in-character does not fit with how you envision your character. Don't project that decision as an argument to justify the endless killing of law enforcement personnel.

 

Also, it seems to me that the CK panel should consider any of your CK applications more seriously in light of what you have just said here. It appears that you are OOCly motivated to take officers' lives rather than as a result of a realistic character's thoughts. I would suggest you work on this perspective as it is highly incompatible with what this server requests. 

 

End of this: The assassinassions of american law-enforcement personnel have always been met with such retribution by America's agencies (DEA, ATF, FBI, CIA) and the sheer collective force of its law enforcement agencies that they have always ended badly for EVERY organization that supplied those. To allow such an unrealistic practice to happen (having cops CK'd just because) shines poorly on this server's. I highly suggest that we revamp the script so as to better reflect the reality of criminality in America. 
 

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8 minutes ago, Hadrian said:

The fact that you cite the most psychopathic and dangerous organization in the world to justify repeated CK applications across the server and a variety of factions exemplifies that several individuals on this server do not have a realistic understanding of criminality in the United States and the ramifications of attacking a law enforcement officer. 

It's an example..... The point I'm making is do you really think your average gang leader cares that it's just the investigator's job? He's still gonna try to have something done about it if he can, and many factions do, as was the example with Tortilla Flats 13, who CKed several cops.

 

11 minutes ago, Hadrian said:

You do not have a character taken from you. Your character was caught committing a crime and is sent to prison for life because he was caught committing that crime. You have taken the decision that your character is not worth roleplaying with again simply because what happened in-character does not fit with how you envision your character. Don't project that decision as an argument to justify the endless killing of law enforcement personnel.

Once again. it's an example. I have an extensive understanding of criminality. I'll tell you that attacks on law enforcement very much do come to fruition, alot.

 

11 minutes ago, Hadrian said:

You do not have a character taken from you. Your character was caught committing a crime and is sent to prison for life because he was caught committing that crime. You have taken the decision that your character is not worth roleplaying with again simply because what happened in-character does not fit with how you envision your character. Don't project that decision as an argument to justify the endless killing of law enforcement personnel.

 

Also, it seems to me that the CK panel should consider any of your CK applications more seriously in light of what you have just said here. It appears that you are OOCly motivated to take officers' lives rather than as a result of a realistic character's thoughts. I would suggest you work on this perspective as it is highly incompatible with what this server requests. 

I'm not OOCly motivated to do anything, so please stop putting words in my mouth and trying to make this conversation about something it's not. This is about the removal of CK applications, which I avidly disagree with. If law enforcement can take people's characters away from them and even impose death sentences (You see it as them going to jail, I and several other roleplayers see it differently. 

 

My perspective is very much in line with what the server requests. If an IC situation calls for a CK, whether or not the player is a cop or a criminal, the CK should be there to be applied for.

 

14 minutes ago, Hadrian said:

End of this: The assassinassions of american law-enforcement personnel have always been met with such retribution by America's agencies (DEA, ATF, FBI, CIA) and the sheer collective force of its law enforcement agencies that they have always ended badly for EVERY organization that supplied those. To allow such an unrealistic practice to happen (having cops CK'd just because) shines poorly on this server's. I highly suggest that we revamp the script so as to better reflect the reality of criminality in America. 

If only they were met with such retribution in characterly.

 

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3 minutes ago, Garras Up said:

It's an example..... The point I'm making is do you really think your average gang leader cares that it's just the investigator's job?

Yes. Someone who can roleplay a gang leader realistically will care to avoid killing a cop and have the sheer force of American law enforcement struck down upon his illegal operations. 

 

5 minutes ago, Garras Up said:

I'm not OOCly motivated to do anything, so please stop putting words in my mouth and trying to make this conversation about something it's not. This is about the removal of CK applications, which I avidly disagree with. If law enforcement can take people's characters away from them and even impose death sentences (You see it as them going to jail, I and several other roleplayers see it differently. 

I find it interesting that you decided to avoid addressing how I've dismantled your argument where you compare your character being sent to prison due to being caught as having your character taken. You yourself said that your perspective is that it is an issue of fairness and that you see the ability to CK cops as a balance to what you perceive is a CK on your character. Also, thanks for the admission on your part that you are OOCly motivated when it comes to prison and avoiding having your characters sent there. Very informative. 

 

7 minutes ago, Garras Up said:

My perspective is very much in line with what the server requests. If an IC situation calls for a CK, whether or not the player is a cop or a criminal, the CK should be there to be applied for.

It clearly is not. You perceive your character as being lost to avoid roleplaying in prison and applying for parole to deal with the consequences of what your character has poorly done. 

 

7 minutes ago, Garras Up said:

If only they were met with such retribution in characterly.

Thank you for this second admission as well that this server does not have the capacity to realistically afford such retribution and as such, the CK system is unbalanced against people who roleplay in LEO factions. 

 

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1 hour ago, Hadrian said:

Yes. Someone who can roleplay a gang leader realistically will care to avoid killing a cop and have the sheer force of American law enforcement struck down upon his illegal operations. 

I beg to differ. To write an officer being killed off as unrealistic is just ignorant, there's a variety of reasons a gang's leader would go as far as to put a hit out on an officer.

1 hour ago, Hadrian said:

I find it interesting that you decided to avoid addressing how I've dismantled your argument where you compare your character being sent to prison due to being caught as having your character taken. You yourself said that your perspective is that it is an issue of fairness and that you see the ability to CK cops as a balance to what you perceive is a CK on your character. Also, thanks for the admission on your part that you are OOCly motivated when it comes to prison and avoiding having your characters sent there. Very informative. 

You didn't dismantle anything so don't flatter yourself simply because I didn't entertain you with a longer reply. All you did was try to push some sort of false narrative onto me (Much like you're doing in your current reply aswell), as if that's what I was saying or as if that's what my entire narrative was about, which is nonsense I currently RP in prison full time on two of my characters, because I'm capable of accepting consequences for my characters and their actions, therefore nobody's OOCly motivated to do anything,. My only motivation is to keep CK applications as a thing, there's no reason to remove them because a few LEO roleplayers are scared of being CKed for whatever reason.

1 hour ago, Hadrian said:

It clearly is not. You perceive your character as being lost to avoid roleplaying in prison and applying for parole to deal with the consequences of what your character has poorly done. 

Of what I have poorly done? Ehm, my narrative was about losing a character to a life sentence due to a victim roleplaying poorly and not roleplaying fear of the gang member who had just drawn a weapon on him. If that can happen and I'm willing to accept it, players should be able to accept CK's.

1 hour ago, Hadrian said:

Thank you for this second admission as well that this server does not have the capacity to realistically afford such retribution and as such, the CK system is unbalanced against people who roleplay in LEO factions. 

What did I admit to? 😅  😅  😅 The system is far from unbalanced, it's actually quite well balanced. LSPD and LSSD can shoot anybody and ask an admin to CK them, or they can try to impose a CK on them via a death sentence.  Illegal rpers, whether they're fac members or not need to file CK requests.

Edited by Garras Up
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4 hours ago, Garras Up said:

I beg to differ. To write an officer being killed off as unrealistic is just ignorant, there's a variety of reasons a gang's leader would go as far as to put a hit out on an officer.

Which is something I never said. You simply modified my argument in order to avoid admitting to being wrong on an issue. Cops do get killed on a regular basis by random criminals and punctual events. Criminal organizations, however, do not kill law enforcement agents on a regular basis. It happens extremely rarely and is met with severe retribution. 

From what I'm reading, you're basing your entire opinion of the criminal universe on very specific incidents which you've read upon, which in no shape or form represent anything that approaches the realism this server asks from its members. If you base yourself on this flawed perspective, I can understand why you feel CK'ing cops left and right to prevent investigations seem realistic when it is not. 

 

4 hours ago, Garras Up said:

My only motivation is to keep CK applications as a thing, there's no reason to remove them because a few LEO roleplayers are scared of being CKed for whatever reason.

I find it interesting that you've qualified a situation as unfair to you because you lost a character due to someone's bad RP, then qualify CK applications as a way to balance out the fact that your own character(s) were subject to what you perceive are character kills.

 

4 hours ago, Garras Up said:

If that can happen and I'm willing to accept it, players should be able to accept CK's.

You clearly have not accepted that it has happened if, as you have written, you believe CKs should exist to balance out what has happened to you. 

 

4 hours ago, Garras Up said:

What did I admit to? 

You have just said such retribution never happens in-character. It cannot. Law enforcement on GTA:W has no tools in comparison to what the American law enforcement realm has. 

 

4 hours ago, Garras Up said:

LSPD and LSSD can shoot anybody and ask an admin to CK them, or they can try to impose a CK on them via a death sentence.  Illegal rpers, whether they're fac members or not need to file CK requests.

Completely incorrect. LSPD and LSSD will request CK on individuals who have shot at them to escape prison or consequences (such as shooting at 10 officers at the end of a defeated pursuit). It is an unwritten policy on this server that if you try to do so, admins will often CK your character so that you do not escape the consequences of your acts in a manner that is prohibited by the server (unrealism). 

Life sentences, rather than the death penalty, if ever imposed, are done so after an exhausting trial that implicated several hours of paperwork and investigations. They're also applied as a result of the character's failures and arrests, which is an extension of their RP. 

 

Someone who is subjected to a CK request is not allowed to contest that CK attempt. 

 

So far, you haven't given much argument to legitimize the CK system, which I believe is one of this server's biggest flaws. Moreover, this server has a pecuniar interest in maintaining such a system which forces people to purchase namechanges, without their consent. 
 

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I think people are misunderstanding this suggestion. It is not just LEO's versus criminals. This suggestion is to point out the obvious flaws in the CK app system IE: One sided CK applications and lack of response to CK appeals. 

 

There's even been CK appeals that have been agreed if they were answered earlier they'd have reverted it, but due to the lackluster response time too much RP has happened since then so they had to not revert the CK even though there was obvious rule breaking. 

 

It basically boils down to this: Either have both parties involved in the CK application process to get rid of the CK appeal section, or have better response time on CK appeals (Which at this time currently stands at 2-4 months)

  • Upvote 2
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I once saw someone’s character kill appeal and the basis of it was this:

 

A guy left the server for a few months, come back to the server and found his “IC girlfriend” had moved on, e-sexing with another player as he had left the server. 
 

So he was given permission to character kill the player, who had no idea he even existed. I felt it summed up this community in a nut shell 🤣🤣🤣🤣

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