Cease outside CK Applications

[Local #3623]

10 hours ago, Henning said:

See you say that, and I used to say that as well until I was on a receiving end of it. Got CKed by a guy who's app was literally the denied revenge fantasy example given in the CK rules. Took them almost three weeks to even look at the appeal and then told me that because three weeks had passed and RP had happened, it was denied. It took 40 days and a staff report on the admin who handled it to get the CK appealed, and they didn't finish it on their own. They only unCKed my character after we PMed the team telling them that they've taken way to long and I'm just going to move on to another character. Only then did we almost immediately get a response saying the app shouldn't have been accepted so it would be appealed. Oh, now 60 days later they still haven't handled the report on the players who broke a dozen server rules on their way to CK me and members of my faction. 

 

The system works great, if everyone does their part and is being honest. But in my situation, not only did the original admin just not care. They straight up lied to cover their ass and said that IFM had voted on the app as a committee when in fact we had testimony from every other member of IFM saying that they either had no idea the app had been accepted OR that said admin wanted to handle it by themselves. So no wonder CK's seem to be such a cluster fuck when their treated like an after thought. There was always a reason they couldn't look at the app. First it was the normal "Staff is very busy and this could take some time" to a few weeks later "Oh well it's a holiday but I promise you'll it'll be handled once we're back from break". Then it was "Oh well we had to handle this situation in PD". Then finally they said "Hey, it's unacceptable that it's taken this long, I'm almost finished with looking into, I just need to talk to a few more people but if I can't reach them by this weekend you'll have your answer" Did we get an answer that weekend? Absolutely not.

 

CK's are a very very final and serious system and their appeals should be treated as the most important thing an admins responsible for. One bad CK can lead to an entire faction losing the motivation to play or disrupts roleplay to the point where it's unenjoyable for said faction. CK appeals should be handled in a matter of days not weeks and definitely not a fucking month. If that's the way the admin team wants to treat CK's, then get rid of the system all together because it's very clear that nobody really cares to manage the system and make sure it run smoothly.

 

[K3V]

I think when it comes to the current setup for CK's transparency is the biggest issue, the length of time something like this takes to handle is also a very big factor. There are a few ways in which this could be changed;

 

• Allow the formation of a CK Board - Consisting of 10-20 community members who have to apply, not just members of the staff team. When someone sends a CK app this board then picks 4 people who are going to handle the application. Those 4 people look at all the evidence that has been supplied, naturally admins will still be involved so they can clarify/oversee however using community members allows for a workload to be taken from the administration team.
• If a player is a member of a faction - Have their CK rights application go to their faction leader, if the faction leader doesn't agree with whats provided it can be denied. If the person who submitted it wants to appeal it they can go through the above process.

CK's are one of the biggest deterrents on the sever that bring those who actually care about a character they've poured hours into into perspective, it makes people care, it makes people cautious about what roleplay they're doing. Getting rid of it completely is a stupid idea, tweaking the system is something thats needed though.

[Apa]

Yeah I don't think we should remove CK apps entirely, they are a very important part of the realistic roleplay atmosphere we strive for here.

But the current system is bogus for sure. Saying "Too much time and roleplay has occurred" is not in any way, shape or form an acceptable outcome for players who have NO ability to speed the process up themselves. If we're going to continue with CK apps then more resources need to be provided for admins to deal with the appeals in an effective manner. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Visceral

[Smilesville]

24 minutes ago, Wirbelwind said:

Basically sums it up for me as well. Why wouldn't they do stupid things if all they do is /acceptdeath and respawn all because you just can't CK them no matter how much damage they've done to your character?

To play the resident devil's advocate, wouldn't a sudden shift in behavior toward a more realistic portrayal (paranoid, perhaps, but more realistic nonetheless) be preferable to the situation we're experiencing now? Many appeals and reports go neglected, which fosters grievances that aren't unreasonable in the least.

 

If someone is going to hole up and never see the light of day because of a CK app, aren't they more or less dead already?

 

10 hours ago, Henning said:

See you say that, and I used to say that as well until I was on a receiving end of it. Got CKed by a guy who's app was literally the denied revenge fantasy example given in the CK rules. [...] Only then did we almost immediately get a response saying the app shouldn't have been accepted so it would be appealed.

This is precisely why a core right of those accused of crimes in the United States is the ability to face your accuser and offer evidence in your defense. Receiving information solely from one side can, in the very best of circumstances, paint a biased and one-sided picture of how events unfolded. At worst, it allows the fabrication of evidence in pursuit of a CK that the aggressor understands will not be dealt with in a timely manner.

 

We're all human. We have our own things going on in real life. Nobody is asking staff to neglect their real lives for the server, but a pattern of neglected reports means we have to compensate with automation of some kind so as not to disenfranchise those on the receiving end of a CK.

 

Mind you, I think an automated CK would be a terrible idea, so our only other realistic option is to reduce the amount of staff attention required in other spheres. The recent change surrounding groups and factions is a terrific start, but we can absolutely build on that momentum so these are given the attention they deserve - nothing will affect a character more, after all. The suggestion with regards to a sample of the community being pooled together for a vote isn't a bad idea either, though as unintended consequences roll in, the system may need some fine tuning.

 

The current system, however, is not working.

 

The very protections designed to prevent the CK victim from knowing there's an application out on their character opens up the door for dishonesty on the part of the adjudicating staff member or the applicant - with dire consequences that cannot be easily rectified at the current pace of review.

[Montana Fats]

I also believe things should be done to enhance the system, and should stay on equal grounds for both parties in a CK. I absolutely hate the /me lights the guy up 

 

“you’ve been shot !” And dead forever.

 

I was recently CKd and decided not to fight it for the soul fact that it’d just happen again and the appeals take -months-

[Wisci]

On 2/4/2021 at 6:46 AM, Garras Up said:

First of all, good. Looking into criminal organization should be considered risky business. Investigating a criminal organization isn't a walk in the park and shouldn't be treated as such. That fear of being CKed should be there. Not only that, but what double standard are you on about? Not only can you lose your char permanently if you get arrested too much (Life sentence / death sentence) you can be CKed if you get killed by the cops and they choose to chase it up with admins.

 

I feel like this suggestion was made because certain players want to do stupid things IC without fear of being CKed, which makes no sense to me.

Sometimes it's important to remember that for LEO detectives or investigators, it's their job. It's one of the major factors against previous attempts to make both sides of a LEO encounter result in a CK - law enforcement has an obligation to respond to calls and it'd be unfair to make them cycle through characters.

 

The same can be said for detectives specifically, if you're assigned to investigate a group that's your job obligation. And again and again.

 

Place stricter enforcement and regulations on what justifies a character kill, and what evidence is required to perform such. Require photographed or recorded evidence. Either make an effort to improve the appeal processing speed, or allow lower ranking staff members to handle appeals.

[Garras Up]

5 minutes ago, Wisci said:

Sometimes it's important to remember that for LEO detectives or investigators, it's their job. It's one of the major factors against previous attempts to make both sides of a LEO encounter result in a CK - law enforcement has an obligation to respond to calls and it'd be unfair to make them cycle through characters.

The fact that it's their job means nothing in the end, do you think some MS-13 OG who's being investigated and is facing life in prison / terrorism charges cares that it's just the investigator's job? No, he's gonna have him killed, and if said situation happened IC, it'd only make sense for the death of the detective to be a CK. FYI, I'm not talking about CKing people for responding to calls, I'm talking about actually investigating viciously violent criminal organizations and mafias. MS-13 in New York for example is known to put kill-orders and contracts out on detectives.

 

Law enforcement has the power to impose life sentences and death penalties, effectively taking people's characters away from them. I recently lost a character that was dear to me as a result of a poorly RPed (on my victim's part) scene which I was eventually arrested for. As a result, my character was put into prison permanently, meaning I'll never be allowed to rp said character outside of jail again.  What would be unfair would be the fact that SD/PD could take my character from me, but I can't take their character from them.

 

5 minutes ago, Wisci said:

The same can be said for detectives specifically, if you're assigned to investigate a group that's your job obligation. And again and again.

Once again, doesn't matter if it's their job or not, they should use proper precautions IC and the presence of CK apps reinforces this.

 

5 minutes ago, Wisci said:

Place stricter enforcement and regulations on what justifies a character kill, and what evidence is required to perform such. Require photographed or recorded evidence. Either make an effort to improve the appeal processing speed, or allow lower ranking staff members to handle appeals.

There's already rather strict regulations on what justifies a character kill. One would need to SERIOUSLY fuck up to have a CK app accepted on them. Out of the various CK apps I've sent in over the years, only two have even been accepted. One of which I never even went through with.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Garras Up

[Red.]

On 2/3/2021 at 7:52 PM, Redman. said:

It seems like a shitty double-standard, where if a perp is killed by the cops for doing crimey crime, they just respawn and only risk CK if they really act stupid while investigators can have CK apps placed against them for even compiling a casefile. Just go back to the old "You're PK'd from this casefile" system.

I redirect you to this bit of the original post. As for potential life imprisonment following an arrest by law enforcement, that's only when:

• You're found guilty of certain heinous offenses (eg: capital murder, which in itself requires a CK). That's after court involvement, provided the accused doesn't just plea guilty to "make it go by faster" as people tend to do.
• You're habitually being arrested and somehow rack up 30 points, which can relatively easily be avoided with a good public defender/defense attorney
• You go through so much of a marathon of breaking the law by racking up 30 points in a manner that makes The Hangover look like Barney the Dinosaur
• If you're either so violent, so corrupted, or deemed such a threat to the public at large that you don't get a shot at parole - Which, in itself, is uncommon and only typically reserved for those who just can't stop breaking laws for more than ten minutes.

 

It's also worth noting that any criminal point accumulation over 30, or violation of certain highlighted mandatory statues, makes court required. This makes a way for you to retort what you are accused of, without forcing the OOC removal of your character, required. This makes a way for you to lessen the blow required. This gives you a voice, and a way to continue.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Redman.

[Garras Up]

Either way, there's no reason the CK application system should be changed. It works fine as it is.

[Red.]

I respect your opinion and firmly disagree with it for the reasons stated coupled with the input/testimony from experience and involvement that others provided.

 

Again, I'm cool with some sort of CK system. I don't think what it is now is it.