Cease outside CK Applications

[Red.]

oh hey a necro'd thread: tl;dr the below is no longer my opinion nor do I currently agree with my old opinion. CK apps rn are pretty heavily vetted and not a kangaroo court, which is nice.

 

Spoiler

  

Short description: Stop doing outside CK Applications. As this would change policy, figured this is more of a "rule" suggestion.

Detailed description:

 

So, as this server progresses and ages, I'm growing more and more of the opinion that CK Applications (eg: the ones people request through LFM/IFM) are a novel-yet-failed experiment. I feel just reverting to a more classic system of "only able to CK those in your faction or on agreement between multiple factions" would be best. This suggestion is just in regards to requesting CKs on individual people by means of application - Not by violation of PG rules or that such stuff.

 

Few main points of note in regards to this:

• CK Apps, as it stands now, are honestly a kangaroo court. The "accused" in them has no opportunity to retort anything presented to LFM/IFM. This is honestly ripe for abuse and falsehoods that are only rectified by means of an after-the-fact appeal.
• CK Appeals. These are, as far as I know, the "solution" to not being able to retort or defend yourself at the time of the CK Application. These appeals are also absolutely notorious for going nowhere and just sitting sucking up forum space. At the time of posting, there are appeals that were filed in November of last year. That, and as far as I can tell, CK Appeals can only be handled by leads/management unlike CK Apps. Even if they're found in the favor of the deceased, they suck up at least a month per application - Which, when this is a game and people just want to build their characters and roleplay, is absolutely brutal and does nothing but make people want to leave this server.
• Legal investigators looking into crime organizations are growing more and more deterred from doing so for fear of being CK'd from characters that they have spent lengthy time building and developing. It seems like a shitty double-standard, where if a perp is killed by the cops for doing crimey crime, they just respawn and only risk CK if they really act stupid while investigators can have CK apps placed against them for even compiling a casefile. Just go back to the old "You're PK'd from this casefile" system.

 

How would your suggestion improve the server? Quality-of-life improvement. Streamlines administrative tasks by removing part of a process that they oversee. Helps to avoid people raging out. Actually promotes roleplay and character development.

Additional information:

 

Edit 8/FEB/21: R/e the argument that "PD/SD can essentially CK my character with life imprisonment, so ofc it's reasonable to try to CK them first" -

  

On 2/8/2021 at 2:12 AM, Redman. said:

I redirect you to this bit of the original post. As for potential life imprisonment following an arrest by law enforcement, that's only when:

• You're found guilty of certain heinous offenses (eg: capital murder, which in itself requires a CK). That's after court involvement, provided the accused doesn't just plea guilty to "make it go by faster" as people tend to do.
• You're habitually being arrested and somehow rack up 30 points, which can relatively easily be avoided with a good public defender/defense attorney
• You go through so much of a marathon of breaking the law by racking up 30 points in a manner that makes The Hangover look like Barney the Dinosaur
• If you're either so violent, so corrupted, or deemed such a threat to the public at large that you don't get a shot at parole - Which, in itself, is uncommon and only typically reserved for those who just can't stop breaking laws for more than ten minutes.

 

It's also worth noting that any criminal point accumulation over 30, or violation of certain highlighted mandatory statues, makes court required. This makes a way for you to retort what you are accused of, without forcing the OOC removal of your character, required. This makes a way for you to lessen the blow required. This gives you a voice, and a way to continue.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Red.
begone, thread.

[hipsxn]

If IFM/LFM deem the CK worthy then I’m sure whatever evidence given in said application warranted it. 

 

CK apps must deem worth evidence and reasoning behind why the application is being posted for, CK's that are just "He called 911" should really be more restricted.

 

I wouldn't say get rid of CK's entirely but make it more reasonable.

Edited February 4, 2021 by hipsxn

[Cocaine Capital]

To be honest it does need to at least be reevaluated. There’s a CK appeal section for if the person believes something was MGd or done wrong. Which is very neglected and there are some CK appeals that have been sitting for months. If the person who gets CKd has the chance to argue it after the fact, at the very least let them argue it when FM is debating on allowing the CK or not. 

[Red.]

8 minutes ago, hipsxn said:

If IFM/LFM deem the CK worthy then I’m sure whatever evidence given in said application warranted it. 

Look through what appeals have been processed. There seems to be minimal standardization at best. There have been CK's accepted because people have "snitched" once after being the victim of a crime and got people arrested for a day or three. There have been appeals accepted on the basis that they should never have been accepted to begin with!

 

And again, this suggestion is only for applications to CK outside players. I don't know what the rules are r/e gang wars and CK's, but this would only touch applications.

 

Like, don't get me wrong. I like some sort of CK system but I don't think what we got now is it. Definite room for improvement, provided it's not removed.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Redman.

[Fireworks]

6 minutes ago, Redman. said:

Like, don't get me wrong. I like some sort of CK system but I don't think what we got now is it. Definite room for improvement, provided it's not removed.

Agreed.

 

I like the idea of CK apps, but to keep them in place there needs to be change.

 

Appeals definitely need to be picked up quicker too.

[DLimit]

19 minutes ago, hipsxn said:

If IFM/LFM deem the CK worthy then I’m sure whatever evidence given in said application warranted it. 

Yeah, I support the current C.K. system.

[Cocaine Capital]

13 minutes ago, DLimit said:

Yeah, I support the current C.K. system.

Then something needs to be done with the appeals section. I mean there’s CK appeals that have been sitting for months now. CK appeals are for if you disagree and believe that something was MGd etc. why not just have it to where you can bring those situations up if you have a CK app out on you. Instead of waiting months just to find out the person who applied to CK you did something wrong. 

[Kaz]

6 minutes ago, Cocaine Capital said:

Then something needs to be done with the appeals section. I mean there’s CK appeals that have been sitting for months now. CK appeals are for if you disagree and believe that something was MGd etc. why not just have it to where you can bring those situations up if you have a CK app out on you. Instead of waiting months just to find out the person who applied to CK you did something wrong. 

A good example of this is the CK appeal from Jebediah Graves. Jeb claims there were rules broken during his CK process which would make the CK invalid. Since then Jeb's faction the Old Cronies has pretty much closed down because of the situation.

 

I agree some preemptive measures need to be in place.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Kaz

[liq]

I wholeheartedly agree after being on the receiving end of such as CK. Putting reasoning, execution and whatever 'appeal' you want to make when it comes to having characters killed off regardless; I had to deal with appealing one before. It took short of 2 months to get a response. That's pretty bad, all things considered. Kudos to the administration for giving you a one-time free namechange for the first CK app you catch on you but that's just not enough.

 

This is a much needed QoL. CKs shouldn't be as liberal unless specifically mandated through wars or, understandably, through violating fear/PG rules, or through committing to a CK agreement.

 

If you could at least have an in to the application itself or be asked to give input on your character's relation to xyz character(s) before someone tries to retroactively CK you over something approved months ago, I'd be for it.

[Trupiano]

1 hour ago, hipsxn said:

If IFM/LFM deem the CK worthy then I’m sure whatever evidence given in said application warranted it. 

 

CK apps must deem worth evidence and reasoning behind why the application is being posted for, CK's that are just "He called 911" should really be more restricted.

 

I wouldn't say get rid of CK's entirely but make it more reasonable.

See you say that, and I used to say that as well until I was on a receiving end of it. Got CKed by a guy who's app was literally the denied revenge fantasy example given in the CK rules. Took them almost three weeks to even look at the appeal and then told me that because three weeks had passed and RP had happened, it was denied. It took 40 days and a staff report on the admin who handled it to get the CK appealed, and they didn't finish it on their own. They only unCKed my character after we PMed the team telling them that they've taken way to long and I'm just going to move on to another character. Only then did we almost immediately get a response saying the app shouldn't have been accepted so it would be appealed. Oh, now 60 days later they still haven't handled the report on the players who broke a dozen server rules on their way to CK me and members of my faction. 

 

The system works great, if everyone does their part and is being honest. But in my situation, not only did the original admin just not care. They straight up lied to cover their ass and said that IFM had voted on the app as a committee when in fact we had testimony from every other member of IFM saying that they either had no idea the app had been accepted OR that said admin wanted to handle it by themselves. So no wonder CK's seem to be such a cluster fuck when their treated like an after thought. There was always a reason they couldn't look at the app. First it was the normal "Staff is very busy and this could take some time" to a few weeks later "Oh well it's a holiday but I promise you'll it'll be handled once we're back from break". Then it was "Oh well we had to handle this situation in PD". Then finally they said "Hey, it's unacceptable that it's taken this long, I'm almost finished with looking into, I just need to talk to a few more people but if I can't reach them by this weekend you'll have your answer" Did we get an answer that weekend? Absolutely not.

 

CK's are a very very final and serious system and their appeals should be treated as the most important thing an admins responsible for. One bad CK can lead to an entire faction losing the motivation to play or disrupts roleplay to the point where it's unenjoyable for said faction. CK appeals should be handled in a matter of days not weeks and definitely not a fucking month. If that's the way the admin team wants to treat CK's, then get rid of the system all together because it's very clear that nobody really cares to manage the system and make sure it run smoothly.