Official rule on /showitems

[Apa]

1 hour ago, Smilesville said:

How do you propose a player uses the /showitems command if they're not close to the robber? How can you say the situation has concluded before the robber has escaped? We have a rule that you can't log for 30 minutes after a situation like this for these very reasons - the situation is ongoing through any circumstance in which the script would allow you to use the /showitems command. Therefore, any use of the command can (and will) be abused by ill-intentioned players instigating a robbery to metagame in one of the manners I described earlier.

 

If you're making a report because you think someone has items they didn't show you terribly often, you're going to attract staff attention. We need staff attention on the issue of how poorly robberies are portrayed.

 

I don't know what part of this you're not getting.

 

I meant /showitems, my bad.

 

Within the context of /showitems, it's not about whether the item would be insanely difficult to find - it's about whether the individual emotes searching there in the heat of trying to get away with a crime. That's why you see so much running of pockets. After all, if an item is on your person, it's probably in your pocket. I've literally had an exchange with someone go something like:

 

** Mask searches your pockets.
** Which pockets?

** All of the pockets.

I'd remove the ability of police characters to use /frisk if I could, but I vehemently maintain that mandating a player use /showitems is ridiculous, regardless.

Yeah which I agree is bad RP and youre right for not wanting to accept it. But what I mean is, if someone RPs checking a few of those pockets to a satisfactory degree (where likely the majority of your items would be) whats the harm in doing /showitems after the search? If the rule is they cant re-search after the fact. 

[Topiyo]

3 hours ago, Smilesville said:

After all, if an item is on your person, it's probably in your pocket. I've literally had an exchange with someone go something like:

 

** Mask searches your pockets.
** Which pockets?

** All of the pockets.
 

The issue isn't the criminal. The issue is you. They're a criminal searching your visible pockets. I highly doubt you role played putting specific items in specific pockets. You asked which pockets just so you could claim that certain items are in magical pockets that didn't exist prior and are out of reach.

 

There is no fathomable reasoning behind not wanting /showitems to be necessary after a robbery. The end of a robbery should be considered the point where the criminal asks you to /showitems. End of that discussion. All this rule suggestion does is make sure the victims don't power-game which is a step in the right direction. Again, I've had people lie about pump shotguns, small pistols, $5,000 wallets and phones. To my knowledge, not a single person on the server RPs a magician. You can't Houdini your items out of existence until the criminal has left.

[Smilesville]

1 hour ago, Topiyo said:

The issue isn't the criminal. The issue is you. They're a criminal searching your visible pockets. [...] There is no fathomable reasoning behind not wanting /showitems to be necessary after a robbery. The end of a robbery should be considered the point where the criminal asks you to /showitems. End of that discussion.

Let's not be asinine, here. If you think the lines you quoted are acceptable RP, you don't belong on this server. Glance through the report section if you think staff believes differently.

 

Whether or not someone has lied to you does not get to dictate server policy. If you know for a fact they lied, they were obviously caught in the act - which seems to cut against the idea that mandating /showitems is necessary. If you're so concerned about powergaming, what about the idea that you can search several places instantaneously and immediately identify the articles you want, as opposed to those you don't? A magazine for a firearm can feel like a lot of different items when you're only feeling the outside of someone's pocket. I've had robbers complain I'm stalling when I type, only for the overall encounter to boil down to two minutes, tops - but that doesn't mean I get to decide how much time has to be between each post.

You're proposing the script robber - whose only thought of roleplay is the backstory hastily contrived when a staff member asks them why they have to rob so many people in such a short timeframe - be given access to view someone's inventory with no thought to the immense amount of metagaming that would come with a privilege like that. At that rate, why not just give everyone access to the /frisk command and cut out the inevitable argument over rules?

 

I doubt either would ever happen, but it's always helpful to remember why it shouldn't. Thanks for being the reminder.

 

3 hours ago, Visceral said:

Yeah which I agree is bad RP and youre right for not wanting to accept it. But what I mean is, if someone RPs checking a few of those pockets to a satisfactory degree (where likely the majority of your items would be) whats the harm in doing /showitems after the search? If the rule is they cant re-search after the fact. 

They can still act on information gleaned from the /showitems like in the examples I mentioned. If they didn't find a SNS you had concealed after the fact, I highly doubt they'll act in the same manner as if a /showitems didn't reveal any weapon at all - no matter what a rule states. Another phone with which they could call police falls into a similar category.

 

It amounts to a monumental difference in how they choose to exit the scenario - which matters just as much as the robbery itself. The scenario does not end until 30 minutes have elapsed with no contact, and that's quite a decent amount of time for something to happen.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Smilesville

[Topiyo]

22 minutes ago, Smilesville said:

Let's not be asinine, here. If you think the lines you quoted are acceptable RP, you don't belong on this server. Glance through the report section if you think staff believes differently.

 

Whether or not someone has lied to you does not get to dictate server policy. If you know for a fact they lied, they were obviously caught in the act - which seems to cut against the idea that mandating /showitems is necessary.

After a 30 minute wait time from a /report, they were caught out. You don't get to claim who does and doesn't belong on the server so don't make those ridiculous comments again please because from the way you talk about robbery role play, you're one of the victims that we don't enjoy coming across.

 

Make player reports if you consider robberies to be poorly role played. This entire rule suggestion has nothing to do with the quality of role play within a robbery. It's focused on the /showinv feature and the appropriate time to use it. As stated by many before me, the perfect time would be after the victim has claimed what would be found on their person from a search.

 

 

After a search has been completed on your character and they've RPd taking what ever items you admitted were on you - then a /showinv must be required. If at that point, you have items on your person that the criminal believes should have been found, they make a player report with evidence. You as the victim can defend yourself on the player report. Is it really that difficult to comprehend what this rule suggestion is asking for? If you have nothing to hide and are confident that the possessions you didn't give up in the robbery attempt would not have been found, you have no reason to fear this rule implementation. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Topiyo

[Smilesville]

1 minute ago, Topiyo said:

You don't get to claim who does and doesn't belong on the server so don't make those ridiculous comments again please because from the way you talk about robbery role play, you're one of the victims that we don't enjoy coming across.
[...]
After a search has been completed on your character and they've RPd taking what ever items you admitted were on you - then a /showitems must be required. If at that point, you have items on your person that the criminal believes should have been found, they make a player report with evidence. You as the victim can defend yourself on the player report. Is it really that difficult to comprehend what this rule suggestion is asking for?

11 hours ago, Smilesville said:

I disagree. In my view, being permitted to infallibly view the entirety someone else's inventory at any point in time leads to enormous amounts of abuse already - which is why "/b /showitems" is so popular with robbers. Furthermore, assessing someone's inventory after a robbery will produce three problems for the singular issue it allegedly fixes.

 

[...]
 

For example, let's say a robber emotes running someone's pockets. They make off with some cash and a phone, well and good - but let's say the victim is made to use the /showitems command afterward and the robber spies a SNS pistol in the inventory. The victim has this pistol concealed in a shoulder holster, which is itself concealed under a light windbreaker. At this point, what do these three problems look like?

1. "/b Bullshit, I ran your pockets, where was the SNS pistol? Can you prove it?"
2. The robber will actively seek out this person in the future with the hopes of obtaining the SNS pistol.
3. Rather than simply getting onto a bicycle or leaving themselves similarly open to retaliation as they may have originally been inclined to, the robber could emote restraining the victim after a robbery to avoid being held at gunpoint himself.

The fact you refer to me, the player, as a victim of your activities says far more about where your head is.

I'll repeat myself: if you think the RP in that quote was acceptable, you don't belong here. If you think you're entitled to victimize players, you don't belong here. True, it's not up to me to cull out the sorts who don't belong here, but you're not going to change my mind all the same.

 

Now let's get back to the suggestion at hand. You've offered no new information to address my point that metagaming will become so much easier with the suggestion you've proposed. Instead, you elect to point out the obvious fact that I detest poorly roleplayed robberies and claim that must be why I oppose the suggestion.

So your claim, then, seems to be that the metagaming risk does not matter so long as robbers are ensured they are receiving their script items. Am I wrong in this assessment? How would you safeguard against the prospect of metagaming while also achieving your stated purpose of adding a check against powergaming?

 

You cannot divorce the behavior of players with the power of the tool you propose to hand them - and the behavior of the majority of players engaged in robbery "RP" leaves much to be desired.

[Topiyo]

22 minutes ago, Smilesville said:

So your claim, then, seems to be that the metagaming risk does not matter so long as robbers are ensured they are receiving their script items. Am I wrong in this assessment? How would you safeguard against the prospect of metagaming while also achieving your stated purpose of adding a check against powergaming?

How does someone meta-game your items after the search if they aren't allowed to search you again once you've done /showinv? Make a player report if you think they've meta-gamed. I'm tired of having to wait 30 minutes for an admin to respond because players like you believe your guns or thick wallets are undetectable during physical searches. I'd rather have the peace of mind once /showinv has been displayed. 

 

Your entire post history on the forums is hatred towards illegal RP. Your opinion about my mindset is irrelevant and just goes to show where your attitude's at. You don't detest poor role play, you detest illegal RP and continuously generalise everyone that performs illegal RP. Some players that perform robberies have some of the richest and greatest stories to tell and you often find them posting their development on the screen shot & videos section. Stop making this rule implementation personal.

 

I posted the above image because you state "nothing has changed about illegal RP" and players like you are the reason for it. This rule implementation has every reason to be beneficial to criminal role play as it allows criminals to focus on the robbery itself and only concern themselves later if the /showinv had items that weren't RPd discoverable by the victim. Yes, victim. You role play a loss as a victim when you're being robbed. You don't belong here if you're incapable of role playing the losing side of a role play scenario.

[Sixty]

@Smilesville There is no metagaming because /showinv wouldn't be shown until the robbery has been completed. They wouldn't be allowed to go back and re-search once its been completed because the robbery is done and acting on the /showinv information in-character at that point would be metagaming. It's strictly for holding players accountable after the fact. This way a report can be made if a player has acted outside the rules, either the victim or the criminal.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Sixty

[mj2002]

Please keep this discussion civil. 

[maramizo]

Under 1.1 from this thread (click me):

1. Players are not obligated to /showitems if others players ask them to if the RP is deemed "minimal" (i.e searching only someone's pockets) - MrsHamster (1) - mj2002 (2)

Under 3.1:

1. /showitems should be done post robberies, not before or during (not strictly punishable, but suggests metagaming) - mj2002

 

The line by mj2002 is a recommendation, not a strict rule. Some players wouldn't mind having the other party having found all the items with minimal RP. For example, if I only have a phone and a few others small items on me, and you RP searching my pockets, I'll just /showitems to expedite things and see "You find all of the items on me.". Mj's line is just to help players prevent themselves from falling into MG traps.

[Smilesville]

8 hours ago, Topiyo said:

How does someone meta-game your items after the search if they aren't allowed to search you again once you've done /showinv?

9 hours ago, Smilesville said:

[After discovering the target still has a weapon] Rather than simply getting onto a bicycle or leaving themselves similarly open to retaliation as they may have originally been inclined to, the robber could emote restraining the victim after a robbery to avoid being held at gunpoint himself.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this.

 

The robbery scenario is not "done" when your character leaves the scene. That's why you're not allowed to log out for thirty minutes. The items someone has can absolutely impact your decision making when you elect to leave the scene.

 

I'm not going to bother addressing the continual strawman nonsense.