Court system and the problem of paperwork

[orca112]

Hello there,

 

lately, my thoughts have been striving over the legal system and courts on GTA:World. They provide a unique medium, catering the roleplay around court cases allowing for people to have their character be a judge, attorney, public defender, etc and allowing for practically anyone to sue another over anything including appeals...for the better or worse.

 

Personally, I have always seen the courts system as a rather nieche roleplay section - similar to medical roleplay or politics considering not everyone likes going through the forums, studying the penal code, general US law and case law to pile up paragraph upon paragraph. One may like it, another does not. However, here lies the problem in my eyes - piling up paragraph upon paragraph. The courts system as is requires a load of documents, a lot of documents that are usually made up or mutually agreed on having to be formulated - medical reports ('NPC Hospital'), work contracts and many more.

 

You might argue this brings in more immersion and more possibilities for roleplay, but frankly, spending their free time on GTA:World, who wants to formulate all these documents, let alone have people read through them thoroughfully to be able to withstand potential lawsuits. As an example, if I lease a convenience store and wish to hire some cashiers, I do not wish to have to spend hours on formulating a work contract just because someone might be out to sue one over it. There is enough 'work' to be put in when creating a business of any kind - research, appropriate character background, stock and price lists, graphics, presence on the forums, applications (property, script, etc.), mapping and further. Now formulating a work contract, company regulations all the way down to micro management (inventory lists, documented items put or taken from inventory...) just to be safe from that one guy that might be out to sue you, it is more of an inconveniece for those involved - you as the one who has to formulate all that on top of other responsibilities and the employees who have to read through it and go along with the amount of paperwork as they work for your business. And even then, everything would have to be waterproof for that case that one guy is out to sue you on a formality within these documents. An opt-out? Well yes, but actually no. If you are sued, you cannot refuse the roleplay like you could for disgusting roleplay nor stay completely away from it - you get involved in a court case, you are all in for whatever is brought up - regardless of who your character might be and what you portray with them.

 

Do not get me wrong, the courts system and the possibilities with it are amazing, it allows for a lot of potential and also interesting land mark cases over time. I would not advocate for it to be removed in any way. But where do we draw the line? When are we going too far? As it stands, any exhibits brought to courts have to be a fully formulated document which can be torn apart by anyone involved in the process leading to the above mentioned issue - masses of documents, regulations and paperwork having to be formulated and filled out along the way ultimately demotivating those in the process as they will spend a significant amount of time on the forums filling out some documents rather than being able to enjoy their time and actively roleplay on the server.

 

I can go more in-depth on a specific example of "when paperwork has gone too far" with the LSPD as a legal faction, but that would make this wall of text longer than it already is for now. The different institutions and legal system on GTA:World allow for a great variety of options, but also have its downsides such as the above mentioned issue. The question remains - when are we going too far? No matter what you roleplay, you do not wish to sit there filling out formalities for your character, but rather actively roleplay on the game server. There are discussions about roleplay quality left and right, issues between different groups, stereotypes, problems in the community - but filling out meaningless papers is seemingly not discussed. Hell, it is even seen as good roleplay - who can formulate their application, motion, lawsuit better whilst the important part - the character portrayal and actions as a (virtual) human being on the server - is completely off focus.

Edited January 21, 2021 by orca112

[KinnyWynny]

This is a paradoxical question that usually hits one of those niches in medical roleplay. Especially in EMS (realistically that is), every patient SHOULD get a report in case they decide to sue the treating Paramedic or the Department itself. But as anyone who's ever done EMS, that just isn't expected nor should it be. PCR's or prehospital care reports are just not done. They'd be a waste of time for the majority of patients, because most don't want to go that in-depth in their roleplay.

 

However, if the Paramedic gets sued, they're kinda screwed unless they have that report. It's a bit of a conundrum. Because EMS is already so taxed with workload, yet it can easily be an issue.

[Justitiae]

That's just usually part of the process with government factions, there's a lot of paperwork involved and I don't think there's a workaround it. The paperwork is usually there as a guide to ensure the system works properly and efficiently, and to ensure longevity - without it, it'll all fall apart. I know a lot of people might not be interested in coming home from work or school to write up more paperwork, but there are a few people who enjoy the administrative aspect of those factions, which heavily include paperwork, and it's obviously a clear reason why factions like government, judiciary, etc. attract specific types of people.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Justitiae

[orca112]

The problem is that the issue around paperwork in regards to the legal system is not exclusive to big legal factions. It is applied to each and every player - your average joe, small time business, busy night club and casino all the way up to legal factions and big agencies. Rather than being a guide for efficient work, it hinders that very aspect by bounding people to the forums instead of the important part happening in the game.

 

There is always that "what if..." hanging over your head like a sword of Damocles considering your character can be made accountable for something that realistically would be documented, but simply is not due to the massive inconvenience it causes and burden put on the individual player - work contracts, general documentation within work processes down to documentations from a third party or NPC such as your ordinary purchase recipe, medical records and contracts / agreements that are a no-brainer or have otherwise set guidelines (e.g. anything involving PM requests).

[Smilesville]

6 hours ago, orca112 said:

There is always that "what if..." hanging over your head like a sword of Damocles considering your character can be made accountable for something that realistically would be documented, but simply is not due to the massive inconvenience it causes and burden put on the individual player - work contracts, general documentation within work processes down to documentations from a third party or NPC such as your ordinary purchase recipe, medical records and contracts / agreements that are a no-brainer or have otherwise set guidelines (e.g. anything involving PM requests).

I wouldn't worry too much about legal what if scenarios - this is new ground for everyone, and if the courts are willing to accept a mere emote from an individual as "CCTV proof" despite the absence of a Shadowplay recording or the like, you definitely have room to wiggle in evidence that would exist realistically.

 

These sorts of things come with the territory of emulating realistic scenarios; when in doubt, you can usually just have a consultation with a lawyer about something and they can give you an answer. No need to bother yourself with it when you can pay someone else who enjoys that sort of thing to do it for you.

[HaveADream]

Legal Faction Management does intend to continue making these 'niche' forms of roleplay more accessible, GTAW already boasts the most active legal scene seen in any other server but there are still strides to be made in terms of bureaucracy and accessibility. But, the unsolvable question is, can you really simplify law? If you're in politics and you're legislating, we want that to be accessible so that the only thing you need is the basics of each party, a willingness to learn and good roleplay basics, but when it gets into the thick of writing law, or in the judiciary, applying law, things get tricky.

 

Recently we've seen a lawyer go after legal factions for loopholes, overlooked common law, and general simplification of the law. Which has posed problems both IC and OOC. This strengthens the barriers to entry for this roleplay as this stuff is cracked down on and over-analysed for future mistakes or issues, leading us to the situation we're in today.

 

It's the taking advantage that has been seen so many times on the community that has led to such huge increases in bureaucracy for all legal factions, and, while I agree it needs to be more accessible, it needs to be a community effort, not an LFM enforced one.

 

Ultimately? If we want legal/law/political roleplay to become more accessible and open to people, we'll equally need players to be unwilling to take advantage of simplified or more-open laws, procedures or features.

[orangejuice]

TL;DR

 

Law and paperwork come hand in hand. 

[Smilesville]

11 hours ago, HaveADream said:

But, the unsolvable question is, can you really simplify law?

No. It'd be hilarious if it weren't so mind-numbingly idiotic, even in real life. The USA has reached the point where even the federal government is unable to quantify the number of federal statutes currently in existence - but current estimates put them in the hundreds of thousands.

 

Might I present to you one such obtuse law in the form of 16 U.S. Code § 3370:

It is unlawful for any person [...] to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law or in violation of any law or regulation of any State or in violation of any foreign law.

 

People have been convicted in federal court for possessing a lobster under a particular length. The circumstances under which the lobster came into your possession are irrelevant. There's a case to be made that every single dog owner in the United States is guilty of a federal offense under this law since it's illegal to possess a dog in Maldives.

 

I say all of this to make one point - the truth of real life is stranger than our fiction. I couldn't see anyone being convicted of this on the server precisely because we're all essentially laymen with regards to legal issues (with the exception of some DOJ staff with actual legal experience that we're absurdly fortunate to have.)

 

11 hours ago, HaveADream said:

Recently we've seen a lawyer go after legal factions for loopholes, overlooked common law, and general simplification of the law. Which has posed problems both IC and OOC. This strengthens the barriers to entry for this roleplay as this stuff is cracked down on and over-analysed for future mistakes or issues, leading us to the situation we're in today.

 

It's the taking advantage that has been seen so many times on the community that has led to such huge increases in bureaucracy for all legal factions, and, while I agree it needs to be more accessible, it needs to be a community effort, not an LFM enforced one.

 

Ultimately? If we want legal/law/political roleplay to become more accessible and open to people, we'll equally need players to be unwilling to take advantage of simplified or more-open laws, procedures or features.

 

I don't know all the details of the case you mentioned, but loopholes like that have a way of sorting themselves out through the judicial process itself, whereas the legislative issue could be solved by having one or two people with the requisite knowledge to draft up a law that includes syntax to reasonably exclude potential loopholes - without being too obtuse for the general server population to understand.

 

Compare the penal code of the server to the California penal code and you'll see just how disparate the legalese really is. I don't think we're in a bad situation at all - as with all legal systems, what we have can grow and change through the application of case law to accommodate all sorts of situations that arise unanswered through the plain text of a law.

 

We'll always have people who will take advantage of loopholes they find - that part of human nature will never change. I would posit that things will work out with the right people left to their own devices at the top of the DOJ chain.

[waterwings]

On 1/23/2021 at 2:12 AM, HaveADream said:

Ultimately? If we want legal/law/political roleplay to become more accessible and open to people, we'll equally need players to be unwilling to take advantage of simplified or more-open laws, procedures or features.

 

On 1/23/2021 at 2:16 PM, Smilesville said:

We'll always have people who will take advantage of loopholes they find - that part of human nature will never change. I would posit that things will work out with the right people left to their own devices at the top of the DOJ chain.

Though for example the LSPD might have lengthy manuals describing what a person can and can't do, the DA's office had no written rules or documentation at all. That is, until recently the new DA did an amazing job writing an entire code of ethics and court leadership established rules of professional conduct for the entire BAR association.

The same thing is for most businesses that are open to /joinbusiness, people join a business without any form of a written contract. The business has no regulations whatsoever written down.

Yet the lack of regulation with the DA's office, BAR association, script businesses etc has never led to much issues. In the meanwhile, factions like the LSPD, LSSD have come in lawsuits because of regulations that /have/ been written down.

 

My opinion? If you are a "small" business, organization or whatsoever, you shouldn't have to rely on any lengthy code of ethics, manual, handbook or so on.

If you wish, as a business owner, to provide that documentation nonetheless? Perhaps as a part of ensuring RP standards? Then go ahead, and all the praise for you with it.

And if people make an attempt to abuse the lack of laws, the fact some laws are simplified etcetera then in my opinion it's up to the courts and LFM to weed out those abusers.

All while the state senate which is now functional can start working on these perceived issues.

I do not think 5 player businesses should be held to the same standards as a 200 member faction in terms of that paperwork.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by BjornV

[Copacetic]

We do the best we can with what we have. We've made the legal system more popular than anybody thought possible and last year alone we dealt with over 500 cases in our courts. Law and paperwork go hand in hand and just so that everyone can be made aware, we are actively working to bring a lot of the court functions in game. It just takes time.