TO IFM - What Is It You Want?

[Angela]

3 minutes ago, Old World Blues said:

It's best if we just bury the whole cult rp.

 

 

Anyway, can we just go back to the original point of this thread?

The original point of the thread is to discuss illegal RP ideas that are out of the ordinary, possibly having member of the staff saying what should or should not be done. As for me, I'd be much more interested in a clut RP, if it is well done, than in Yakuza or Norteño gang. I don't see how a Yakuza faction should be different than any other ethnic organization or a Norteño gang different from any other gang. I'd also love a illegal street racing faction, but seeing the amount of lag and desync in the server it'd be impossible.

[eTaylor]

2 hours ago, ashlyii said:

 

Actually, the reason we stopped is for two reasons:

1. FM didn't want to go through with it. (And realistically, we needed some of those buildings turned into properties. We had a lot of members and formed a good community up there. Still one of the most fun role-plays I've experienced on the server.

 

2. The server isn't mature enough, simply put. The amount of meta-game we had from our thread with people showing up in sports cars just to troll us was intolerable. We had two people show up as devil worshippers with full intentions of getting us in trouble with the law (that luckily, SD didn't end up charging us for defending ourselves). @Hugh-Gi-Oh put in a tremendous amount of work with our cult and people still ask to this day why we don't start again - those are the two simplest answers I can give.

 

On the overall topic, I do agree that some clarity needs to happen. FM seem to keep things very close to their chest compared to other managements on the server - like PM who you can easily ask a question to and receive an answer ASAP in their Discord.

 

I think a public FM Discord would be great, much like the PM Discord where people can ask questions that don't typically need a big answer.

Which come back go the fundamental issues I spoke about before, consistent mismanagement and negligence of interest levels in addition to complete dependency on outside forces killed you, not the people that trolled you. The fact that people decided to start with it all instead of building it up naturally and how this is completely ignored as an issue is another thing. I’ve said this back then about the faction when it started too, the roleplay is fun and I hope you guys don’t get demotivated but you guys burned up exactly as expected. When you create yourself a faction that is so incredibly vulnerable and unsustainable you can’t blame anyone else for not pulling through. 

[lux]

18 minutes ago, eTaylor said:

Which come back go the fundamental issues I spoke about before, consistent mismanagement and negligence of interest levels in addition to complete dependency on outside forces killed you, not the people that trolled you. The fact that people decided to start with it all instead of building it up naturally and how this is completely ignored as an issue is another thing. I’ve said this back then about the faction when it started too, the roleplay is fun and I hope you guys don’t get demotivated but you guys burned up exactly as expected. When you create yourself a faction that is so incredibly vulnerable and unsustainable you can’t blame anyone else for not pulling through. 

 

Honestly, I think demotivation in factions stems from a lot of outside factors and how if parts of the community do not care about your faction - you'll struggle to overcome the issues. Creating something and dedicating time and effort into building something fun and unique - which people keep asking for - can only go as far as the community allows it and is mature enough to role-play along with it.

 

Perfect example would be Lifeguards. When we started it originally, we had no big plans to be any bigger than a small team of people with similar interests and trying to bring something that hadn't been done before while bringing some activity and realism to Vespucci. The amount of shit we had from the community would strip the fun away from it. Whether it was people constantly faking drownings (everyday), cops saying "Oh great they sent Lifeguards" (despite being medically trained) and making our lives difficult to RP, people attempting to rob us at the tower (despite it being a safe-zone) or people calling us "mall-rats" for.. posting menyoo pictures? I'm not really sure.

 

 

The fact is, the community constantly screams for more unique and creative ideas but when those ideas actually manage to sneak through the crack and become established - you get 90% of the community giving that faction shit for little to no reason. I don't like gangbanger RP. I will never partake in it. It's not for me - but I don't go talking shit about the factions that exist because I know that a few bad eggs in the report section do not dissuade from the work that the leaders are putting in. Leading a faction isn't easy. Hell, after Lifeguards and as written above, I'd never want to lead anything on GTA:W again.

 

 

While this thread seems to be on the train of kinda.. bashing FM - and while I can say I've definitely had my own issues with FM in the past, they really are "damned if they do, damned if they don't."

 

If this community wants creative and unique factions to work then it needs to mature and allow these ideas to be worked through with Faction Management so that they're consistant with current server expectations.

 

What's the safest option for the community? Continuing as it is - accepting similar factions like gangs, mobs and not allowing more creative ideas to come to fruition or trying to be more lenient on peoples ideas? FM can't win IMO - they either stick as they are and get called out for it or they try and allow more freedom and the community lashes out because it's just not mature enough to allow these creations to exist.

 

I'd love a FM discord similar to PM. But currently as it stands - you can't please everyone. People will always talk shit about an idea and go out of their way to make life more difficult for those that are trying to do something unique, it's just human nature online.

 

 

We're lucky that the past two BIG GTA RP experiences have both been based in San Andreas - where gang RP is common. If GTA chose a location or time period where these gangs didn't exist, I legit don't think people would know what to do.

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by ashlyii

[Fergie]

38 minutes ago, ashlyii said:

 

 

 

If this community wants creative and unique factions to work then it needs to mature and allow these ideas to be worked through with Faction Management so that they're consistant with current server expectations.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but no. From both first hand experience and speaking with others who had factions denied - IFM is not willing to work out ideas. If IFM doesn't like a concept - or has any issue with it - it just gets denied rather than IFM actually sitting down to discuss the issues and find a way to sort them out that makes everyone happy. Sure - not every faction submitted should get through. But as of now there is no working with IFM. It's they either approve you or they don't - there is no discussion or middle ground. 

 

At the end of the day this server is about the community. While yes, there needs to be some guidance from the administration team to ensure that it's fun for everyone and doesn't turn into a trash server - there is such thing as too much oversight. If people present an idea for a faction that isn't actually retarded, well fleshed out, clean thread and it has experienced RP'ers with clean admin records - there is no reason not to let them do their thing and have a shot. Especially when it's something unique. If it's a copy paste of 10 other factions - sure, deny it. But originality is currently being pushed out in favor of cookie cutter factions.

[HerpToTheDerp]

36 minutes ago, ashlyii said:

Perfect example would be Lifeguards. When we started it originally, we had no big plans to be any bigger than a small team of people with similar interests and trying to bring something that hadn't been done before while bringing some activity and realism to Vespucci. The amount of shit we had from the community would strip the fun away from it. Whether it was people constantly faking drownings (everyday), cops saying "Oh great they sent Lifeguards" (despite being medically trained) and making our lives difficult to RP, people attempting to rob us at the tower (despite it being a safe-zone) or people calling us "mall-rats" for.. posting menyoo pictures? I'm not really sure.

 

 

The fact is, the community constantly screams for more unique and creative ideas but when those ideas actually manage to sneak through the crack and become established - you get 90% of the community giving that faction shit for little to no reason. I don't like gangbanger RP. I will never partake in it. It's not for me - but I don't go talking shit about the factions that exist because I know that a few bad eggs in the report section do not dissuade from the work that the leaders are putting in. Leading a faction isn't easy. Hell, after Lifeguards and as written above, I'd never want to lead anything on GTA:W again.

 

This is a really big reason why doing any sort of legal RP is hard. If you're not getting bashed IC about it you'll get harassed in character. 

 

I really would love to know where people get the idea that mugging someone who's clearly homeless, by description and the clothing they wear. There's a difference between being a gangbanger and literally not having any emotion in character. 

 

I also apparently had someone try to RP smashing my vehicle windows while it was parked near the beach. The most populated place in game that's a tourist attraction. Not to mention the alarms would go off. It's the stupidest scene I've seen.

 

I feel that many people who roleplay on the server fail to feel sympathy or any sort of remorse or emotion in character because a character isn't bog standard I guess? I don't really get it and it really sucks. 

 

I absolutely love to see unique roleplay done in game but the community seems to actively push it away like the plague. It's not even a management issue it's an issue in the community that we all need to work on.

[ingenv]

7 minutes ago, Fergie said:

I'm sorry, but no. From both first hand experience and speaking with others who had factions denied - IFM is not willing to work out ideas. If IFM doesn't like a concept - or has any issue with it - it just gets denied rather than IFM actually sitting down to discuss the issues and find a way to sort them out that makes everyone happy. Sure - not every faction submitted should get through. But as of now there is no working with IFM. It's they either approve you or they don't - there is no discussion or middle ground. 

 

At the end of the day this server is about the community. While yes, there needs to be some guidance from the administration team to ensure that it's fun for everyone and doesn't turn into a trash server - there is such thing as too much oversight. If people present an idea for a faction that isn't actually retarded, well fleshed out, clean thread and it has experienced RP'ers with clean admin records - there is no reason not to let them do their thing and have a shot. Especially when it's something unique. If it's a copy paste of 10 other factions - sure, deny it. But originality is currently being pushed out in favor of cookie cutter factions.

This

[lux]

19 minutes ago, Fergie said:

I'm sorry, but no. From both first hand experience and speaking with others who had factions denied - IFM is not willing to work out ideas. If IFM doesn't like a concept - or has any issue with it - it just gets denied rather than IFM actually sitting down to discuss the issues and find a way to sort them out that makes everyone happy. Sure - not every faction submitted should get through. But as of now there is no working with IFM. It's they either approve you or they don't - there is no discussion or middle ground. 

 

At the end of the day this server is about the community. While yes, there needs to be some guidance from the administration team to ensure that it's fun for everyone and doesn't turn into a trash server - there is such thing as too much oversight. If people present an idea for a faction that isn't actually retarded, well fleshed out, clean thread and it has experienced RP'ers with clean admin records - there is no reason not to let them do their thing and have a shot. Especially when it's something unique. If it's a copy paste of 10 other factions - sure, deny it. But originality is currently being pushed out in favor of cookie cutter factions.

 

Hey, I agree with you. Anyone that knows me personally knows that I always try to bring ideas forward that aren't the norm on this community. I tried to bring Park Rangers and got really far with that before being closed down via a forum PM months after we had been established. I made Lifeguards which is still going today - but arguably can't comment there as I haven't kept up with what's currently going on. We had a cult that had a good 20+ members in it before FM shut us down. My interactions with FM haven't really worked out positively to the point that I've said I'll never attempt to start a unique faction again on GTA:W. A friend once went to FM about starting up a fake ID thing that again, got really far with - but were told to put it on hold and never heard back.

 

Now I'm currently in the process of making a clothing store to give people more RP rather than just using a menu - and working with Property Management to get set up was smooth, easy and what you'd always hope for. @Bombie is a credit to the server, btw.

 

 

So this isn't so much as me defending FM because I have my own issues and reasons for why I agree with the overall conversation here. People do need to be allowed to express their creativity and ideas more - at the end of the day, this is a game and we're here to have fun.

 

But at the same time, I can look at it from FM's point of view and they probably get 50 terrible faction applications for every 1 decent one. I fully agree with you, those with clean admin histories AND long serving members of the community should be given more trust and support to push their ideas.

 

We've all seen Gangbanger Faction #232, White Supremacist Faction #13 and the likes - some of them are an absolute credit to the server even if I don't particularly like that kind of roleplay - but we don't need more of the same IMO. The ones we have are good at what they do. Too many cooks spoil the broth.

 

The biggest issue is that the community as a whole needs to be more accepting to these unique ideas that DO manage to come to life - because as someone that has managed to bring something a little unique and different to the table, the community made it less fun than it should have been.

 

I do think that FM should be more open minded in their approach and easier to talk to. Getting answers or even support is sometimes more hassle than it's worth, but they're also players with lives and admin responsibilities that we shouldn't overlook.

 

 

An FM discord similar to the PM discord where people can swing by a support section to ask some simple questions that don't need a big forum PM that sits in an inbox for 4 weeks before being denied would be a good start, I think. Transparency is the key and right now, we don't really have that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by ashlyii

[eTaylor]

1 hour ago, ashlyii said:

The fact is, the community constantly screams for more unique and creative ideas but when those ideas actually manage to sneak through the crack and become established - you get 90% of the community giving that faction shit for little to no reason. I don't like gangbanger RP. I will never partake in it. It's not for me - but I don't go talking shit about the factions that exist because I know that a few bad eggs in the report section do not dissuade from the work that the leaders are putting in. Leading a faction isn't easy. Hell, after Lifeguards and as written above, I'd never want to lead anything on GTA:W again.

 

Lifeguards have great roleplay, but are often brushed off for being sexualized. "Gangbanger" RP is huge, but it's often brushed aside because shooty-shoot and reports. Much like how most people don't see the lifeguarding ins and out most people don't see the gangbanger ins and outs. Gang roleplay is versatile, it's incredibly dynamic and engaging for those who find the right faction for them. It's constantly evolving, and certainly includes far more than just "gangbanging". There are entire branches relying off factions and gang roleplay, much like how the LSPD is a community in a community gangs aren't any different. That's why gangs are much more sustainable, because they offer far more.

 

I hate labeling gangs as good and bad, but the ones that often stand out as the "good" gangs have been around for years or have leadership that has experience doing this for years. That's what I'm missing with all these unique ideas, much like new ideas IRL they're hard to break through. They really demand a person that's resilient and driven. And I miss a whole lot of responsibility in this, people who start new things and drop them a few months or weeks later never point at themselves or have any self-reflection but instead immediately put the blame with IFM or other managing groups and players.  

[Bospy]

9 hours ago, ashlyii said:

While this thread seems to be on the train of kinda.. bashing FM - and while I can say I've definitely had my own issues with FM in the past, they really are "damned if they do, damned if they don't."

I'll put this issue to bed for the time being so people can get a clear answer to what IFM want.

 

We're currently drafting a list of "continuity-approved" ideas, although it won't be exhaustive. But beyond that, I'll explain why our rules are more rigorous than other communities.

 

For all the people in this thread complaining about the lack of freedom provided by faction management, if we went with the alternative route there would be a significantly larger thread complaining about the lack of guidance or realism espoused in factions.

 

Cults, fictional multiracial gangs, and Yakuza will probably not exist on this server so long as this current branch of IFM is in power. I do not foresee that changing any time in the future. We are a serious roleplay server. The Yakuza does not directly conduct street operations in Los Angeles, they use Asian street gangs to do their dirty work, especially Vietnamese gangsters. If you want to roleplay Yakuza, it might be able to be done in very highly contextual cases, but often times what we're presented is a bad representation.

 

We have already established within continuity that Los Santos is a fictional analogue to Los Angeles, and therefore if it does not exist in Los Angeles or within close proximity to it (e.g. with the case of the Fresno Bulldogs existing in Paleto Bay), then it is unlikely we will approve it. To the naysayers saying that we have "our own thing," yes, we do, but the exceptions we make for fictional enterprises are few and far between and reliant on our trust in the individuals behind the project to execute it. Transnational crime or fictional organized crime is sometimes given an exception for one-off chances, but often times these chances are expended by bad roleplay or inactivity.

 

Criminal roleplayers as it is enjoy our curation and would complain if we permitted the existence of cults and Chicago gangs. Maybe some people advocate for Nortenos and other gangs similar to that, but we're not approving those simply because it'd be a blood bath. The one Norteno gang would not have much to do beyond bait the presently existing factions into gunfights. That aside, Nortenos are not necessarily a huge influence in SoCal in real life.

8 hours ago, ingenv said:

At the end of the day this server is about the community. While yes, there needs to be some guidance from the administration team to ensure that it's fun for everyone and doesn't turn into a trash server - there is such thing as too much oversight. If people present an idea for a faction that isn't actually retarded, well fleshed out, clean thread and it has experienced RP'ers with clean admin records - there is no reason not to let them do their thing and have a shot. Especially when it's something unique. If it's a copy paste of 10 other factions - sure, deny it. But originality is currently being pushed out in favor of cookie cutter factions.

None of ideas presented to IFM are ever particularly unique, I have seen many hundreds of factions submitted following the same formulaic process. What makes a faction better than any other faction is mindset, not the ethnicity of the characters or the methods they used to induct their members. If the focus is on good roleplay, that's all that matters. Most ideas have been done or executed, often times poorly. Our oversight is actually very minimal beyond the approval process. The approval process is very rigorous just so that we do not need to provide so much oversight when the factions do exist. This is in contrast to other communities wherein there was essentially a reactive staff team responsible for moderation, and therefore they were always behind the curve on catching rulebreakers and trolls. By making the faction approval process subordinate to a strict selection standard, it allows us to be proactive in finding rule breakers.

 

One of the most harmful things for a roleplay server of the nature of GTAW is a bad faction. Forget deathmatching. Forget hacking. If you can legitimize a faction and adhere to the faction regulations, you can habitually line step. You can use your faction as a justification for deathmatching, because IFM reports are always long and require historical context. You can use your faction to abuse the script and sell assets. You can use your faction to destroy roleplay quality by inducting bad roleplayers. There is nothing more harmful, in my opinion, than a 30 member faction composed of terrible roleplayers.

 

"Fleshing out" is subjective, as is the nature of every faction. Our ideas for continuity are currently being charted by a team of players, not staff members, who will eventually present their findings. But the reason we have not presented a strict limitation for "continuity" thus far is just so unique ideas may be presented. It just so happens that many unique ideas also unfortunately end up being rather trashy or unrealistic. A British football firm would not fit in our setting. A cult wouldn't fit in our setting. How is a cult that sacrifices people to Tchernobog supposed to interact in jail with a hardened Latino gang member demanding they respect the rigorous racial segregation rules of the setting? Some ideas might fit in our setting depending on the context, but we don't entertain them because to do so would establish bad precedent.

 

Creating a faction on this server is a great privilege, but it is certainly not a right. Especially considering the script support and quality assurance we have, we want the very best faction leaders and roleplayers creating factions. We cannot have a substantial number of low quality factions of a dubious nature, or it would degrade the overall quality of roleplay on the server. Anyone is welcome to submit a faction idea, or even spitball with IFM over faction ideas, but there is no guarantee they'll be accepted. Beyond that, people should be able to dive into our faction archive and see a list of threads with pages of excellent roleplay material, with no doubt in their mind that each page has some redeemable quality to it. What's the point of allowing open faction creation when many of those factions would be dead within a week?

Edited October 1, 2020 by Bospy