Crime Deterrence & Punishments (Server Judicial Philosophy Discussion)

[Brett]

Hello! 

 

I'll try to keep this short to encourage discussion, so I'll just get right into it. For years when it comes to roleplay servers, there has been debates over how to really handle punishment when it came to committing crimes. Some servers had a really lenient system of punishments for offenses under the philosophy that although yes people do need to have some punishment, they didn't believe in them being long and thus you ran into instances of people going to jail for major crimes for only around like six hours or such before being back out on the street to continue doing whatever. Other servers were extremely strict, making punishments really long so that characters regardless if it was online or offline would have to have the character spend a good while in jail/prison before being released to make them accountable for their crimes. This philosophy has also extended to even things such as handling traffic violations, to whether to make certain crimes misdemeanors or felonies, etc. 

 

My question here is rather simple. What in your opinion, really makes people care about the punishments they can receive from the IC judicial system regardless of what that system is in terms of sentence length, punishments, classes of crimes, etc? Are people afraid of high fines and thus if you make like speeding maybe a high fine, it will discourage speeding on the server? Or do people not really care about fines for traffic offenses so no matter what it's set to, it won't make a dent in peoples behavior? Do making some crimes felonies instead of misdemeanors encourage people not to commit them? Or does it not matter because of the numerous ways they can just OOCly get around the punishments (PK's, Namechanges, etc). Or does no matter what system you adopt, people just simply won't care about crime punishments no matter what they're set to? I want to hear the communities opinion on this as I see a lot of topics on various problems of crimes, but although we have argued about fixes on the IC and OOC level, I have not seen discussion on what exactly discourages people from committing crimes in the first place on these servers if such a way exist at all? Or if discouraging crimes from being committed in general is something that's even truly desirable which if so, then what is desirable when it comes to crime on these servers? I want all that to be apart of this discussion, and truly just want to see where the opinions on this fall. Discuss! 

[Trupiano]

I believe the first thing to do is to continue to update the county jail, providing more avenues for RP once your inside. If we can provide the tools and assets needed for long term jail RP you'll see more activity from prison gangs and more activity in general. This provides a basic player base inside to drive RP forward. 

 

Next step I believe is to make it so you have to spend a minimum of an hour online in jail for that day to count towards your sentence.  People shouldn't be able to stay offline till the last second then use /releaseme. However at the same time I don't expect anyone to RP 48 actual hours in jail either. I believe the one hour rule is a fair middle ground, LS County is a dangerous place and by increasing it's activity it only gets more dangerous. This should be the main deterrent against crime.

 

To drive that deterrent home I think the final step is an addition to the CK rules making unrealistic jail RP a CKable act. To common do mallrats come into county only to run there mouth towards members of prison gangs or violate prison rules that would get you badly injured or killed. Acting like billy badass in county jail should have very serious consequences and I think the fear of CK would convince the majority of people that maybe playing by the jailhouse rules is better for they're interests then acting like a lone wolf. 

[GHawkins]

On my previous roleplaying server, I found myself usually at the center of discussions like this (comes with leading the DOC which would be majorly impacted I guess, aside from the jailed players).

 

And from all those years, the only thing I have seen that works is when the punishment has consequences, potentially long-term consequences, which are not easily overcome. If a player risks losing assets, positions or other things they worked for, they either have to become more careful, or risk losing everything.

 

However, the counter argument of "it's a game" always pops up. Punish a character too heavily and you start punishing the player OOC. But you want to punish the character, not the player. But punishment by definition is something "not nice", which means you will hit the player as well. But you play the game to have fun, not to do "not nice" things. But technically, if you do a crime, it means you did a "not nice" thing to someone else. So you should be willing to accept a "not nice" for the "not nice" you caused. But you play the game to have fun, not to have "not nice" things happen.

 

In the end, it's a bit of a catch 22.

 

Just now, Henning said:

I believe the first thing to do is to continue to update the county jail, providing more avenues for RP once your inside. If we can provide the tools and assets needed for long term jail RP you'll see more activity from prison gangs and more activity in general. This provides a basic player base inside to drive RP forward. 

I can sadly tell you this does not necessarily lead to more roleplay by definition. A lot of work and constant effort, from admins, law enforcement, gangs and the regular players, is required to get to this point. And even if it's achieved, slack for only a few moments and you may lose it all.

 

Prison is meant to not be a fun experience. Being sentenced to prison by definition forces someone into another roleplay environment than they want to be in. And that immediately shows in the way they behave themselves in an environment where they are regulated in their freedom; The character doesn't want to be there, but neither does the player behind the character. They want to decide what they do, when they do it, in their nice car or in their house and with the people they want to roleplay with. Prison takes that away.

 

Prison roleplay will always be close to my heart, because of all the opportunities it offers. But you either have to voluntarily be there, or have a certain mindset in order to really roleplay in it. Not many people have that mindset and even less people have the knowledge about US prison systems to do it all realistically.

 

9 minutes ago, Henning said:

Next step I believe is to make it so you have to spend a minimum of an hour online in jail for that day to count towards your sentence.  People shouldn't be able to stay offline till the last second then use /releaseme. However at the same time I don't expect anyone to RP 48 actual hours in jail either. I believe the one hour rule is a fair middle ground, LS County is a dangerous place and by increasing it's activity it only gets more dangerous. This should be the main deterrent against crime.

 

This relates to my first bit; Forcing a player to stay and interact in an environment they really, really don't want to be in does not necessarily improve the experience. Usually, the opposite happens. People start resisting the environment, trying to push themselves away from it. Or they log in only to AFK and be done with it until they can go off again.

 

13 minutes ago, Henning said:

To drive that deterrent home I think the final step is an addition to the CK rules making unrealistic jail RP a CKable act. To common do mallrats come into county only to run there mouth towards members of prison gangs or violate prison rules that would get you badly injured or killed. Acting like billy badass in county jail should have very serious consequences and I think the fear of CK would convince the majority of people that maybe playing by the jailhouse rules is better for they're interests then acting like a lone wolf. 

That's basically the nuclear option but it would work. But many people are ignorant of the US prison system so they just act out what they think they should act out, however unrealistic it is. That's the problem with prison roleplay, it requires specific knowledge to do right which can't be condensed into a paragraph of text.

[mj2002]

I think that the punishment for murder only, need to be a lot harsher. Anything else, the other party can reasonably recover from and roleplay out. Murder, this is different. I don't mind sentences being relatively low, but murder should be punished harshly, in order to discourage ending every conflict with just executing the people that are wounded on the floor.

[Kenshi]

Ultimately, sacrifices have to be made if you're willing to venture down the criminal path. There are laws, laws are meant to promote peace  & prosperity & to provide society with a sense of security, knowing anyone that breaks it, will be punished. And that's the key word. Punishment. While I agree, this is a game. But this is also a game with the goal to promote a realistic environment, and depiction of every-day life. A virtual life essentialy. And It's my opinion, if your character breaks the law, and gets caught. They should suffer the consequences. If I beat the snot out of someone, for whatever reason, and I get caught? I will suffer the consequences, more often than not, long term. God forbid if I do something that happens on the daily in this server, and murder someone. I'd probably never get out of prison untill I'm 40 or 50. Let alone think of shooting and murdering a police officer, you'll probably not even see the inside of a prison cell, and if you do, it's the only thing you'll see for the rest of your life. 

 

I understand that nobody WANTS to be in prison (except prison factions, but you know...) but that's how it is. I have to do stuff too that I don't like. If you break the law, you need to be punished for it. Severity depending on a number of factors, granted. But punished nonetheless. Heinous crimes especially.

However..

I also believe that in the event someone DOES get arrested and has to spend serious time, they should also be provided for in terms of roleplay possibilities, player interaction and stuff to do. And that's where In my eyes, the issues lies. Lack of stuff to do for prisoners. I believe this was atleast somewhat alleviated with the recent revamping of the prison system. But stuff like work detail (in or out of the prison under guard), making license plates, carpentry, you name it. Every effort should be made to make people want to roleplay in prison. 

 

[Mitch]

3 hours ago, Brett said:

Are people afraid of high fines and thus if you make like speeding maybe a high fine, it will discourage speeding on the server

Fines should be overhauled to depend on the value of the car, if your speeding in lets say a 200k car, it should be a x4 or something, it needs to deter these awful drivers who drive around with little to no regard to anyone. Or possibly have a 3 strike system (idk if that's in, no flame) where if you gt 3 driving charges on a vehicle, the vehicle is crushed / taken away from you for either resale or a LSPD auction

Edited August 17, 2020 by Mitch

[Eden]

For law abiding characters, the punishments that are in place should be effective deterrents. Non-violent violations and misdemeanors are just going to be common regardless of the penalty, especially traffic violations. Speeding fines are high in my state but people will still speed as a matter of convenience--even through work and school zones. To a certain degree I think we should expect the same in-game, regardless of the posted fine or penalty. This is partially due to human nature but also to the fact that we have maybe 300-500 people in a city and county that would realistically have tens of thousands. The potential of harming another person or being seen/caught doing something by another person is therefore greatly diminished. Would higher fines help? Potentially, but it would need to be a hefty increase.

 

As a whole though it's a difficult thing to pinpoint just due to the sheer diversity of characters and their players and how they react to consequences. Unfortunately, there is some IC/OOC crossover that complicates the matter and makes a purely IC or OOC solution troublesome. Not all players care about their characters to the same degree, for example. A character with an established history, extensive assets, and relationships will have a lot more to lose than a new or throwaway character that may not yet have had (or planned to have had) long term development. Of course there are exceptions to this but I have frequently seen people simply namechange a character to get out of the consequences of their actions when they realize they may be going to jail for a long period of time or just CK in jail because it's not worth the trouble to them.

 

Which brings me to one of the common complaints I have heard which is that jail and the consequences of the justice system are "not fun". Philosophically, I do not think punishments should be fun. If they happen to be, such as an active and vibrant jail RP, then that's a bonus and great and I would very much like it to become that. However, the crimes that bring lengthy jail sentences are typically ones of a violent or serious nature that affected someone else's character. As @GHawkins mentioned, if you do a "not nice" thing to someone else, you should be willing to accept a "not nice" thing to yourself. Just because your character's actions were fun for you does not mean they were fun for others but you do run into that catch 22.

 

Considering all this, I think an effective deterrent is one that inconveniences not only the character but also the player. While it shouldn't be an excruciating experience for the player, there should be some inconvenience to them to balance the inconvenience they caused to others. Methods of OOC avoidance that people will use to dodge jail or the consequences of their criminal activity should be addressed. There should be heavier restrictions on namechanging while under arrest or in jail and asset transfers should be locked for the duration of a sentence. This is especially true for people charged with or serving sentences for violent crimes like murder which feels way too common a solution to disputes on the server.

 

That said, I think it would also go a long way in enhancing punishments by providing RP opportunities for people in jail, whether they might consider it fun or not. Maybe a script job to earn a little money or more partnerships with community organizations for classes, therapy, medical checkups, etc. That way, even if the prisoner-prisoner RP is less than desirable, there is something to do.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Eden

[Lawliet]

9 minutes ago, Mitch said:

Fines should be overhauled to depend on the value of the car, if your speeding in lets say a 200k car, it should be a x4 or something, it needs to deter these awful drivers who drive around with little to no regard to anyone. Or possibly have a 3 strike system (idk if that's in, no flame) where if you gt 3 driving charges on a vehicle, the vehicle is crushed / taken away from you for either resale or a LSPD auction

 

Some places evaluate fines on someone's financial status, so. I feel it'd be appropriate. Cops can get a general idea of someone's financial state by their assets (owned houses/cars) on the MDC. We should definitely find a way to scale it.

[Alyssa McCarthy]

3 hours ago, mj2002 said:

I think that the punishment for murder only, need to be a lot harsher. Anything else, the other party can reasonably recover from and roleplay out. Murder, this is different. I don't mind sentences being relatively low, but murder should be punished harshly, in order to discourage ending every conflict with just executing the people that are wounded on the floor.

I think the punishment for murder should effectively be a CK - you are never allowed to leave Jail.

That is of course assuming you CK'd your victim.

Players shouldn't be allowed to rename to create a new character with the same assets as that avoids the whole purpose of punishment and consequences.

[goddessoflife]

3 hours ago, Mitch said:

Fines should be overhauled to depend on the value of the car, if your speeding in lets say a 200k car, it should be a x4 or something, it needs to deter these awful drivers who drive around with little to no regard to anyone. Or possibly have a 3 strike system (idk if that's in, no flame) where if you gt 3 driving charges on a vehicle, the vehicle is crushed / taken away from you for either resale or a LSPD auction

There is a part in the penal code that if the owner accumulates four or more traffic related fines in one week the vehicle can be impounded for 7 days. But not many know about it. However I think something a bit mor long-term should be added too, because you have people being pulled over 2-3 times a week. And clearly money doesn't do anything to most of the people. Which is something I'd more so lean towards a character portrayal issue, but who's going to report it?