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Server Rules: Questions and Answers


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Here is an actual video of police ramming a criminal during a shooting. Of course there are some considerations than may have been taken.

 

Ramming is used when someone else life is in danger but not as first escalation measure. This might be taken into consideration when you decide to ram a person during shootings. If you life is in danger and you are driving a car at the moment you can petty much ram a criminal when they are distracted or if you have a clear chance to do it as you are involved with the shooting or you have no more options, like the officer in the SUV since the other officers on foot were cornered.

*Law enforcement officers should use only the amount of force necessary to mitigate an incident, make an arrest, or protect themselves or others from harm. The levels, or continuum, of force police use include basic verbal and physical restraint, less-lethal force, and lethal force.*

Basicly the guy was shooting the police and in terms of legality the force was used to protect others from an active threat... I might be inmoral... Yeah for sure ramming other people always looks like a bad action, but you could petty much try to sue the police.


Now... If this was a ingame situation and you petty much started a shooting with the police and you running away while shooting them... Petty much they can ram you with all rights... I mean if they can blow your brains with an automatic rifle why not with a car? Also petty much most of the car accidents ingame ragdolls you above the car like in that video, so you might be fine or with 2 broken ribs but not dead at all...
And I know people who survived 23 shots in different body parts including the head, petty much you can survive a accident depending of the situation... People died in real life by 5 km/h accidents just by having bad luck

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We're seeking to clarify this rule at the next staff meeting to turn it from admin discretion to a codified rule hopefully, from my perspective a ram is fine in the circumstances of:

 

1) It's the best case scenario - e,g. at a traffic stop, a suspect gets out armed, ramming is obviously the best thing to do.

2) It's roleplayed.

3) It's not repeated. 

 

That's just my own perspective on it but other admins may disagree hence why LFM will try and get it codified at the next staff meeting after consultations with both PD/SD leadership which we're currently having. In my own opinion, It's not a realism issue as much of a roleplay issue to me, sure it's realistic, but it's an instant-win, there's no defence to a laggy car coming fast towards you, and doing it to ensure the other player is down is just a huge, unfightable advantage. In the situation regarded to here it was discussed with both staff management and other administrators before being actioned.

 

But yeah, we'll seek to clarify it ASAP.

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16 minutes ago, HaveADream said:

We're seeking to clarify this rule at the next staff meeting to turn it from admin discretion to a codified rule hopefully, from my perspective a ram is fine in the circumstances of:

 

1) It's the best case scenario - e,g. at a traffic stop, a suspect gets out armed, ramming is obviously the best thing to do.

2) It's roleplayed.

3) It's not repeated. 

 

That's just my own perspective on it but other admins may disagree hence why LFM will try and get it codified at the next staff meeting after consultations with both PD/SD leadership which we're currently having. In my own opinion, It's not a realism issue as much of a roleplay issue to me, sure it's realistic, but it's an instant-win, there's no defence to a laggy car coming fast towards you, and doing it to ensure the other player is down is just a huge, unfightable advantage. In the situation regarded to here it was discussed with both staff management and other administrators before being actioned.

 

But yeah, we'll seek to clarify it ASAP.

 

..Why is instant-win bad? Why is this down to winning and losing?

If a criminal decides to start shooting up a street and cops, you can't expect a cop to sit there and type /me rams guy or even get out of his vehicle to return fire - because the criminal will just win 10/10 times. I'm having a really difficult time accepting how people shooting at cops have "no defence" - Maybe using proper cover to ensure you don't get rammed - if you're standing in the middle of the street shooting then that's your own mistake. A cop isn't going to ram through a vehicle to get to the criminal and if they do then THAT can be punished. The criminal has a fire arm, they can shoot at the car from cover leaving the cop a sitting duck. None of these people chose to use defensive cover - that's on them, not the cop.

 

If someone is dumb enough to pick a shootout with cops standing in the middle of a road without cover, expect /real life/ tactics to be used to take them down. And if the hit WASN'T justified.. leave it to Internal Affairs and the Courts to punish that player and keep it all IC.

If criminals actually used cover, they won't get rammed. Don't use cover? Expect that it can happen to you. I see no instant-win there.

These people have already been punished unfairly for something that happens in real life and I don't think it's fair at all.

Edited by lux
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27 minutes ago, HaveADream said:

We're seeking to clarify this rule at the next staff meeting to turn it from admin discretion to a codified rule hopefully, from my perspective a ram is fine in the circumstances of:

 

1) It's the best case scenario - e,g. at a traffic stop, a suspect gets out armed, ramming is obviously the best thing to do.

2) It's roleplayed.

3) It's not repeated. 

 

That's just my own perspective on it but other admins may disagree hence why LFM will try and get it codified at the next staff meeting after consultations with both PD/SD leadership which we're currently having. In my own opinion, It's not a realism issue as much of a roleplay issue to me, sure it's realistic, but it's an instant-win, there's no defence to a laggy car coming fast towards you, and doing it to ensure the other player is down is just a huge, unfightable advantage. In the situation regarded to here it was discussed with both staff management and other administrators before being actioned.

 

But yeah, we'll seek to clarify it ASAP.

The problem is... The illegal player escalated the situation properly or LSPD didn't escalated it properly? Because if there wasn't proper escalation it's a clear rule violation but if the suspect started baiting the police by taking his gun out? The police will do whatever is needed to take him down.

Actualy in terms of legality striking people with police cruisers counts as "use of deadly force" so it will be the same as being authorized to use guns against a armed suspect.

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well, i don’t see why a clear case of VDM is being argued. the server rules have always stated that you need to ROLEPLAY any vehicle rams that are being done before going through with them. you don’t do them and hit the guy for a second time and then rp the whiplash.

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4 minutes ago, arkan said:

well, i don’t see why a clear case of VDM is being argued. the server rules have always stated that you need to ROLEPLAY any vehicle rams that are being done before going through with them. you don’t do them and hit the guy for a second time and then rp the whiplash.

Because it puts people at an unfair advantage if you're the guy getting shot at but there's opportunity for you to run over your assailant by stipulating you've got to type when the other party doesn't.

 

This has nothing to do with police role-players but often happens in your usual firefight too. It especially becomes problematic when in the heat of the moment you do it, both parties don't emote anything and the VDM vs. gunfire happens, then you've got administrators raining admin jails on those who VDM only despite those who do get VDMed not role-playing it either.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, lux said:

..Why is instant-win bad? Why is this down to winning and losing?

 

41 minutes ago, lux said:

because the criminal will just win 10/10 times.

 

42 minutes ago, lux said:

If criminals actually used cover, they won't get rammed. Don't use cover? Expect that it can happen to you. I see no instant-win there.

It's a simple case of marketing myopia really, you believe you can do no wrong, we can make excuses to claim we are the best, etc. Think about this; PD has access to Teamspeak in which they can call for backup and say shots fired VIA MIC. They have an unlimited amount of ammunition, can respawn with an unlimited amount of firearms, have access to top speed vehicles, have absolutely nothing to worry about at the end of the day from a gameplay perspective. Criminal role-players are often vindicated for ramming people without roleplay; they are jailed, sometimes banned for VDM, it's really a double standard for what is being propagated here.

 

You ask why this comes down to winning and losing; why? Because in situations like these, PD has the absolute and full capacity to wipe the floor clean with the criminal role-player 9 times out of 10.  Teamspeak, unlimited weapons, instant backup and location tracking; it's about common courtesy and respecting the player on the other end of what you are doing. It tends to be very difficult for illegal role-players to get their hands on firearms, and given that Los Santos is basically a police state; the odds are they will get arrested for it at a regular t-stop.

 

I say this as a player who plays in SD, and a member of the illegal RP scene; I would never-ever ram a player with my cruiser, I think it's poor taste and puts forward that play to win mentality that PD is so well known for; the mentality we have been trying to curb for so long- but members of PD believe they can do no wrong. I encourage you to stop resisting change, understand that the player on the other end of your actions is playing a much more difficult game than you are, ultimately to be fair and respect the player who you are roleplaying with.

 

53 minutes ago, lux said:

If someone is dumb enough to pick a shootout with cops standing in the middle of a road without cover, expect /real life/ tactics to be used to take them down. And if the hit WASN'T justified.. leave it to Internal Affairs and the Courts to punish that player and keep it all IC.

This sets an incredibly dangerous precedent for administration and again; if this was a criminal roleplayer doing the same thing? It would be an instant jail, they would not be given the opportunity to go to IA and the courts. When you are in a position of so much power you need to understand that it comes with responsibility; that responsibility is for one- to treat other players with respect and fairness, next time a gang banger who hates cops runs over a cop at a T-stop- would you prefer if that had been kept IC? Because I guarantee you they would be jailed for it. Don't take this punishment as some sort of debilitating wound to the department and in-tandem your egos; take it as a wake-up call, it's time to wake up and understand that you need to play this game differently.

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1 minute ago, UTOPIA said:

 

 

It's a simple case of marketing myopia really, you believe you can do no wrong, we can make excuses to claim we are the best, etc. Think about this; PD has access to Teamspeak in which they can call for backup and say shots fired VIA MIC. They have an unlimited amount of ammunition, can respawn with an unlimited amount of firearms, have access to top speed vehicles, have absolutely nothing to worry about at the end of the day from a gameplay perspective. Criminal role-players are often vindicated for ramming people without roleplay; they are jailed, sometimes banned for VDM, it's really a double standard for what is being propagated here.

 

You ask why this comes down to winning and losing; why? Because in situations like these, PD has the absolute and full capacity to wipe the floor clean with the criminal role-player 9 times out of 10.  Teamspeak, unlimited weapons, instant backup and location tracking; it's about common courtesy and respecting the player on the other end of what you are doing. It tends to be very difficult for illegal role-players to get their hands on firearms, and given that Los Santos is basically a police state; the odds are they will get arrested for it at a regular t-stop.

 

I say this as a player who plays in SD, and a member of the illegal RP scene; I would never-ever ram a player with my cruiser, I think it's poor taste and puts forward that play to win mentality that PD is so well known for; the mentality we have been trying to curb for so long- but members of PD believe they can do no wrong. I encourage you to stop resisting change, understand that the player on the other end of your actions is playing a much more difficult game than you are, ultimately to be fair and respect the player who you are roleplaying with.

 

This sets an incredibly dangerous precedent for administration and again; if this was a criminal roleplayer doing the same thing? It would be an instant jail, they would not be given the opportunity to go to IA and the courts. When you are in a position of so much power you need to understand that it comes with responsibility; that responsibility is for one- to treat other players with respect and fairness, next time a gang banger who hates cops runs over a cop at a T-stop- would you prefer if that had been kept IC? Because I guarantee you they would be jailed for it. Don't take this punishment as some sort of debilitating wound to the department and in-tandem your egos; take it as a wake-up call, it's time to wake up and understand that you need to play this game differently.

 

I'm not a cop, btw. Regular ol' civilian.

Just like in real life, cops have the advantage over criminals. Everyone knows if you're stood in the middle of the street in a shootout with cops, the cops are going to throw resources at you to stop the scene..
 
We're asking for clarification on the rule, whether it be from a LSPD/LSSD/Civilian/Illegal perspective - it doesn't matter that the situation I'm using is cop vs criminal right now, that's just because cops are suddenly being punished for something they have always done.

 

What are we as players allowed to do if we are in a vehicle and a person is shooting at us? What is allowed and what isn't allowed?
If a criminal has a car and the cop is in the middle of the street shooting at them - are they allowed to ram them? The reason you gave about the traffic stop also does not warrant a vehicle ram without roleplay as there's enough time to actually RP the ram in that situation as there is no weapon being discharged.

 

The only rule on ramming is this. We're just asking for further ruleset clarification for what is actually allowed for ALL players - if a criminal is being shot by a cop, are they allowed to ram them? If someone tries robbing me with a gun, a civilian, am I allowed to hit them with my car? Because realistically I'd say so.
Ramming players just to rob them is considered non roleplay, as It is not realistic.

 

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