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Player Kill


Triple-J

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Alright so first and foremost please don't call out other people / factions even though this is based on (recent) reports. This is honestly a question from me as I'm confused and would like it to be discussed. So feel free discussing this subject but I'm mainly hoping for a reaction from management and admins. However I think it's an important issue that needs to be discussed overal.

Okay so I've noticed that most of the (recent) reports are about the player kill aka PK rule. Now I'm familiar with the global term PK but from experience I know that different servers handle the PK differently. So I tried to do some research and I couldn't seem to find a PK anywhere being defined in this server. The only part that talks about this in the rules section is the following, but it also includes a type:

 

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Returning to the scene of your death is also considered metagaming, even if done on another character. Some time must be given so the players on the scene can leave it. Once the players involved in your death (involved meaning present at the scene in this particular instance), you can roleplay normally in that particular area. Returning to the same neighborhood is enough to be considered returning to the scene. You may not roleplay gathering information on your own death on any character you have, or referencing any of your dead characters on any of your other characters. Interacting with your own body on any character 

I believe the bold part misses out on a few words and is supposed to say: Once the players involved in your death have left (involved meaning present at the scene when your death occured in this particular instance, you can ..... and so on.

So apparently this is the only part inside the rules that speaks on what you can do after have been player killed / PK'd.
Now there is some examples defining the PK from previous servers I know of telling you:
     - ICly You forget about all events and all the people involved, 30 minutes prior and up to your death. You cannot go out searching revenge for your death as simply you're dead to the player that killed you.
     - ICly You forget about every event, action taking place or people involved prior to your death, you basicly have to start all over.
     - ICly You forget about every event and action taking place that specifcly lead up to your death. You also forget about the people involved in causing your death but you do remember everything else. You're dead to the other players involved in causing your death and therefore not allowed to revenge your death.
Now some servers added something for realism:
     - You're not dead but you're injured heavily which causes IC memory loss of all events and people involved and leading up to your death. You cannot take revenge because ICly you're dead to the other players that were involved in causing your death and because your character turned to afraid and confused around the whole situation causing him to avoid finding out.

I think we all get the global idea that PK is a precaution created to prevent players from going on an endles revenge killing spree. But the most important thing is the following part:

Most servers added the following to the rule, You cannot partake in any revenge upon the players involved in causing your death unless being re-introduced to the scenario.

Now I know for a fact that right now there's a lot of confusion on what "being re-introduced to the scenario" means. I feel that his is one of the main causes for many reports as we as a server should define "being re-introduced"  in the server rules.
Because many players will find a simple way to get re-introduced to they can involve themselves in the revenge.

Now there's many examples players name in their reports such as:
     - It being a paid hit from someone else. --> Okay, but is a player that was related to the death allowed to give you that hit? This does simply fuel OOC revenge.
     - someone witnessing their beloved get murdered after they were murdered themselves, allowing them to rejoin in an ongoing feud. --> Okay, but is there a certain amount of time you have to wait atleast? And in case of a faction war doesn't this allow people to keep on re-introduce themselves forever? 
     - Getting in a new feud with the involved players by accident. --> How is this regulated, how do we know a player didnt purposely created a new feud with them to get (OOC) revenge? We can't ban this rule as players simply can't avoid each other so how do admins handle this?

And are we even allowed to get re-introduced to the current scenario which caused your death? Or are we only allowed to be re-introduced to a new scenario that involves the players that caused your death?

As you can see I have many questions and the rules I showed all seem similar, but once you get into an IC situation the different rules show how different they really are and can have a big impact on the situation. A slight difference can have a huge impact on what a player is allowed to do after a PK and also impacts heavily how admins handle a report. Right no I believe admins look towards a report regarding to the idea of what a PK is, which can differ from person to person. So people feel free to show examples of situations that occured to show this but please leave out player names and factions.

 

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Also let me add that I remember seeing a defenition roll by in GTA world's discord posted by an admin but I can't seem to find it back. So even if there already is a clear defenition somewhere and someone can show me it, please don't L&A it yet because I'd like to see what people think and if the rule should be expanded or adjusted to regulate new situations that occured.

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Honestly, I've been here 2 years now in a couple days, and the PK rule has always been a grey area. From what I know a PK makes you forget all about the events that directly or indirectly caused your death, along with the people who have murdered you, but if someone you're friends with ICly witnesses your death because they happen to be there when you get PKed, they forget about you dying and it continues on as usual. As for PK wars, never died or really been apart of one, all the wars I have been attached to have been CK ones, so I have no idea about that part.

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14 minutes ago, Jax said:

Imagine being in a war and not CK'ing when you die. 


Laughable.

Some people expect you to CK when you die, but when it comes to them dying, they pussy out.


With the updated fear RP rules, under certain circumstances, could you not technically push for a CK on someone when both sides are in a known war? Value of life is something that’s emphasized. If you don’t show a value of life and completely disregard your safety, that falls under this type of CK, I’m fairly certain. 

 

For example, if you both engage in a shootout and one of you dies. You’ve technically suspended a value of life in favor of shooting back. Could this not be grounds for a Fear RP-based CK? Especially in an ongoing gang war. 

Edited by Giles
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I think the big misconception here is people believing player kills are in-character deaths in some form when they are actually not. Please do understand that player kills exist so all your effort and character development do not go to waste since in the end this is just a game. They kill YOU, the player, as you play, not the character.

 

I come from a server where player kills were regarded as deep in-character injuries, no matter how hard you were hit, and when you respawned you were either assisted by the fire department if you were in a public place, or a good Samaritan magically found you if you were in a more private or harder place to find. This worked for the most part but some very specific situations gave birth to a lot of issues with this system.

 

I personally believe players should not have the ability to respawn straight after they are player killed. Pretty much just how criminals should not log off right after committing a crime. This should be set in place in order to give the emergency services a realistic chance to respond and encourage more roleplay interactions, rather than just spawn at the hospital.

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As we can see in a recent report, people like to use PK's as a shield against blow back, even if the PK's are months old. The rules around PK's are incredibly murky as well, say you are wounded/downed by the script and a buddy RP's dragging you to his car and driving you to a hospital? Even if your injuries are none life threatening, if you use the /acceptdeath command that's considered a PK even though you should for all intent and purposes still be alive.

 

I think it's bullshit and I think the people who use the "Oh we PKed you X months ago" excuse are lazy RPers who'd rather win then experience genuine RP.  They PK people like it's an insurance policy against future conflicts, think your gonna have an issue with someone? PK them before they can do anything to you and report them if they do, even if they haven't interacted with you in months.

 

I get that my opinion might upset a few people but I feel it's something that has to be put out there if we wanna open a honest discussion about this topic.

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9 minutes ago, Henning said:

if you use the /acceptdeath command that's considered a PK even though you should for all intent and purposes still be alive.

 

But is it though? that's no where stated in the server rules (yet) so how is this even maintained by admins? 
One player could feel like being down on the ground is a PK (if injuries are bad enough). Another player will feel like its only a PK if you /acceptdeath
Then in another scenario a player will gun you down and once down on the ground keep shooting at you to make sure youre dead, but IF it would happen that only one arm was hit can an admin reset your health so that ambulance medics can save you still or is it too late and considered a PK?

Good point brought up and again raising many questions.

 

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I think it's bullshit and I think the people who use the "Oh we PKed you X months ago" excuse are lazy RPers who'd rather win then experience genuine RP.  They PK people like it's an insurance policy against future conflicts, think your gonna have an issue with someone? PK them before they can do anything to you and report them if they do, even if they haven't interacted with you in months. 

I personally agree with you, however currently I'm experiencing a type of PK war that's new to me since it includes a super faction controlling sub-factions against another few factions. With so many factions involved how I'm starting to see that players that were PKed months ago can either not partake in the war at all anymore OR they keep on re-introducing themselves to it and it's an andless war starting to become a DM fest.
Also for the players that choose not to partake in the PK war anymore it gets super awkward because they basicly either deny the whole war exists ICly or acknowledge but are seen as weak or scared ICly because they don't join attacks.

Edited by Triple-J
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They honestly needs to re-work on PK and CK's.

 

For now, PK's are pretty lame. For example, if someone PK's you. You just forget about the person. Like, you never knew him. WTF? This is so lame.

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19 minutes ago, Triple-J said:

But is it though? that's no where stated in the server rules (yet) so how is this even maintained by admins? 
One player could feel like being down on the ground is a PK (if injuries are bad enough). Another player will feel like its only a PK if you /acceptdeath
Then in another scenario a player will gun you down and once down on the ground keep shooting at you to make sure youre dead, but IF it would happen that only one arm was hit can an admin reset your health so that ambulance medics can save you still or is it too late and considered a PK?

Good point brought up and again raising many questions.

 

I personally agree with you, however currently I'm experiencing a type of PK war that's new to me since it includes a super faction controlling sub-factions against another few factions. With so many factions involved how I'm starting to see that players that were PKed months ago can either not partake in the war at all anymore OR they keep on re-introducing themselves to it and it's an andless war starting to become a DM fest.

1. The hypothetical I was using about /acceptdeath was a real situation the happened to me so yes, it is.

 

2. If you stand up to a faction like the Mexican Mafia or Aryan Brotherhood and declare yourself "Tax free", you should be CKable for lack of fear. I know it doesn't make people happy to hear it but the Mexican Mafia and Aryan Brotherhood exhibit incredible influence over the Southern California criminal world (More so the Mexican Mafia but my point stands). This whole situation is messed up by the fact that one faction involved is a huge entity trying to represent the real world control of a prison gang and the other is a make believe gang that realistically would have been wiped off the map months ago. So obviously when one side refuses to take the L they should be taking, the conflict will drag on into the situation we are seeing now.

 

You'd never be able to kill every Sureno in the LA area, they would keep coming until your dead. To sit there and act like you've won or even have the chance of winning is just badRP. Not saying you can't declare yourself tax free, but at least understand and accept the consequences of declaring yourself as such.

Edited by Henning
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25 minutes ago, Henning said:

You'd never be able to kill every Sureno in the LA area, they would keep coming until your dead. To sit there and act like you've won or even have the chance of winning is just badRP. Not saying you can't declare yourself tax free, but at least understand and accept the consequences of declaring yourself as such.

I'm going to keep it short as this is a topic for another thread and not based on the discussion of the defenition of a playerkill.

But this isn't LA however. Yes factions are based upon the real world, but it's a fictional city with fictional factions. Just because the MM is one of the most powerful gangs in most states and cities in the US, it doesn't mean it has to be here. There are certain area's, states or cities where other gangs or some mafia would hold more power. There's a reason NF held way more power in northern cali. Again it's a fictional area, anything can happen based upon IC actions. If you'd want that you'd have to find a server that portrays 1:1 with Los Angeles.
If for some reason a mafia faction (russian mafia, italian mafia or maybe even the new eurasian faction) would grow very powerful ICly. In your case they would be forced to still obey MM. Because MM is so powerful IRL?

 

 

On topic:

 

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1. The hypothetical I was using about /acceptdeath was a real situation the happened to me so yes, it is.

My "But is it though" ? Is mainly aimed towards management. As how can something be? How can a player be punished if there's not an actual rule or defenition written down. That's my main issue regarding the whole PK discussion. People have different perceptions, even admins. 

Edited by Triple-J
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