Criminal Court Rules Changes - No Consultation, No Meaningful Results

[Storm]

@JohnGili thoughts?

 

ot - it's hard to please everybody as legal faction management (and that's coming from experience) if what @Fireworks is saying is true (and i believe it) that he setup the situation to gather feedback before any drastic action was taken and this feedback was never gathered it's one of those things where you can't really say LFM are bad for acting on it as they believed that this had happened and had no negative comments fed back to them. nothing is ever set in stone, rules can be re-tweaked and systems can be reverted hopefully with what's come up people will be able to reach a happy middleground and get things moving again 🕯️

Edited November 24, 2024 by Storm

[PogChamp]

I love you @Adv, you deserve smooches

[Power]

18 hours ago, Adv said:

I am concerned that there isn't much of a handbook, and a clear guidance and guidelines in this area of the world too, which was highlighted by Soyuz's post. Maybe there's more we can to do help grow this and accommodate a clear set of standards at a level that is agreed by all sides. 

 

Thank you for responding. I just wanted to respond to this. I've graded most of the Bar Exams in the last 5 years easily so I have a good gauge of the aptitude of a lot of our members and understand what it takes to get someone to a point to be able to operate in the court system if they can get to that point at all. The issue with the catch all handbook or guidelines is that if it was that easy it would be done years ago. This document would be so large it would be absolutely insane, to be able to capture everything especially if we are going to stick with the level of complexity that we have now it our court systems. And Soyuz alluded to this the issue just isn't the reference material. That is a very easy problem to fix by creating a directory that points to everything. The main issue is containing the system so its more digestible to a regular player, like one of the rules I liked the most was restricting referenceable precedent to just the U.S Supreme Court. That should of been done years ago. Like we can't expect players to be able to know how to navigate Kentucky Supreme Court precedent because a lawyer thought it would be a good idea to reference it. 

 

Also who is going to write it and make the structural decisions? The CJ is too busy with day to day running the faction to spend days basically reforming the whole court system. Lower level leadership isn't going to invest the time to do it unless they feel empowered that the days but most  likely WEEKS it would take to write up everything wouldn't be a giant waste of time if there ideas were to get denied. LFM doesn't have the know how or time to do it either. I think what is needed is a Judicial Reform commission. Keep it small I say 3-5 people outside of faction leadership. Empower the commission to be able to make decisions and take action. Obviously LFM and Leadership would still have final say and visibility into all the discussions. The issue with an open ended suggestion system is nothing ever gets done and no one takes ownership of implementing suggestions. Also too many voices and opinion. 

Edited November 25, 2024 by Power

[righteous wheeler]

Been RP'ing illegal characters since 2019, and have been leading factions since 2022. And honestly? I'd rather just take the guilty route rather than wait /50/ days for it to be handled. 

 

I think these changes are a step in the right direction.

Edited November 25, 2024 by righteous wheeler

[Soyuz]

4 hours ago, Power said:

 

Thank you for responding. I just wanted to respond to this. I've graded most of the Bar Exams in the last 5 years easily so I have a good gauge of the aptitude of a lot of our members and understand what it takes to get someone to a point to be able to operate in the court system if they can get to that point at all. The issue with the catch all handbook or guidelines is that if it was that easy it would be done years ago. This document would be so large it would be absolutely insane, to be able to capture everything especially if we are going to stick with the level of complexity that we have now it our court systems. And Soyuz alluded to this the issue just isn't the reference material. That is a very easy problem to fix by creating a directory that points to everything. The main issue is containing the system so its more digestible to a regular player, like one of the rules I liked the most was restricting referenceable precedent to just the U.S Supreme Court. That should of been done years ago. Like we can't expect players to be able to know how to navigate Kentucky Supreme Court precedent because a lawyer thought it would be a good idea to reference it. 

 

Also who is going to write it and make the structural decisions? The CJ is too busy with day to day running the faction to spend days basically reforming the whole court system. Lower level leadership isn't going to invest the time to do it unless they feel empowered that the days but most  likely WEEKS it would take to write up everything wouldn't be a giant waste of time if there ideas were to get denied. LFM doesn't have the know how or time to do it either. I think what is needed is a Judicial Reform commission. Keep it small I say 3-5 people outside of faction leadership. Empower the commission to be able to make decisions and take action. Obviously LFM and Leadership would still have final say and visibility into all the discussions. The issue with an open ended suggestion system is nothing ever gets done and no one takes ownership of implementing suggestions. Also too many voices and opinion. 

 

 

Kentucky supreme court precedent does not apply to san andreas anyway. it is only persuasive, i.e. “hey! judge! look how they resolved this similar situation in kentucky!! maybe we should do the same thing?”. I think lfm got confused here. 

[Soyuz]

Handbook isn't that difficult tbh. Me and sephiken had a civil procedure draft that was coming together p well.  Even if it is EXTREMELY long like you fear, there are chapters, and the LSPD/LSSD handbooks spread across all their threads are also extremely long. 

 

But I agree the courts need to be more digestible to make them faster and more efficient

Edited November 25, 2024 by Soyuz

[Jankara]

43 minutes ago, Soyuz said:

 

 

Kentucky supreme court precedent does not apply to san andreas anyway. it is only persuasive, i.e. “hey! judge! look how they resolved this similar situation in kentucky!! maybe we should do the same thing?”. I think lfm got confused here. 

That would create a SA precedent if accepted as an argument.

 

Also; what the use of reference cases does is force both sides to seek comparative caselaw in order to prove their point which leads to a) misunderstood caselaw being presented b) the player with the best access to caselaw having an advantage over other players.

 

The less caselaw the easier it is for new players to rp law. 

 

So imo, the rule is a good rule.

[Soyuz]

Pretty important for us to take inspo from other states at times because usually IRL courts make better/more fair decisions than ours ahah. 

[Jankara]

4 minutes ago, Soyuz said:

Pretty important for us to take inspo from other states at times because usually IRL courts make better/more fair decisions than ours ahah. 

It's not rl though and we don't have the machinery of court to cope with trying to replicate rl.

[Dunkersplay]

23 minutes ago, Soyuz said:

Pretty important for us to take inspo from other states at times because usually IRL courts make better/more fair decisions than ours ahah. 

 

16 minutes ago, Jankara said:

It's not rl though and we don't have the machinery of court to cope with trying to replicate rl.

Just to bud in quickly here;

Most lawyers use precedence in other states as solid arguments to establish it in their areas or their own states, utilizing it to varying success.