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PK and CK


1357

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10 minutes ago, Marcus. said:

To give any and all PKs more impact, whilst still retaining the option for permanent death. The solutions I can come up with would be a logistical nightmare for the staff team, and the other would be the "shotgun" method (aka if a player is PK'ed all their stats money, etc, are halved).

Two posts ago I explained why the latter is silly. If I have a character with zero stats and nothing to lose we're back on zero and I can disregard all I want. And it makes no IC sense, why would your stats half? You can be charged like 10k for medical bills but that's all. Otherwise I agree with you, it is complicated hence some time needs to be put into this to develop a proper system.

9 minutes ago, 1357 said:

Yes ? That's what i put 'even you understand' in that sentence as what you say is true but right now is considered a controversial decision to make in terms of playing within the rules and is instead viewed as a way to loop the system to avoid the otherwise inevitable. But yes, i agree..

All-CKs is controversial because it's an extreme and repelling towards the more peaceful type of players. The current state is also controversial for its heavy paradox and lack of IC sense. The middle ground I suggested isn't because it's an optimal solution that everyone can fit in.

 

The three of us seem to mostly agree lol, I'm sure the community will find sense in this.

Edited by eTimes
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We agree that the status quo is far from perfect, indeed. We also are advocating different sides, I have always been on the legal side of things and know how to avoid trouble and have always put an emphasis on character development hence I am so attached to mine. It stems back from when I first created him, and the memories which are tied to it.

 

I also bring up the examples or disagree with others because throughout my times in RP communities I basically have seen it all. I once too advocated an CK only system, though I have seen what it does and it is not fun to see a community fall apart from within.

 

Though I am certain @1357 and you and I can discuss this without going up in flames, the lack of mimic and other features normally observed in such situations is sadly not present in written form, and I refuse to use emojis in a serious discussion.

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33 minutes ago, Marcus. said:

 

The only issue I have is with what you declare as a flaw of a player, when this sentiment is within humans to help others who seemingly are in need.

Well it's not a flaw in the player.. whatever someone decides to do is their choice and the actions that follow is a result of the decisions they've made but instead a flaw of the system. I am not judging anybody who wants to help a random stranger on the side of the road, if that's what someone wants to do so be it. But it's more a problem when players are allowed to do this but not have a sense of fear for their own life and this practically correlates from an ooc to ic perspective and it's true. This is a point i make in regards to making role play feel more immersive. 

 

There really aren't a whole lot of regards to a characters life other than this rule barrier and in general good role play by those select few who don't play to win. 

 

28 minutes ago, eTimes said:

Two posts ago I explained why the latter is silly. If I have a character with zero stats and nothing to lose we're back on zero and I can disregard all I want. Otherwise I agree with you, hence why some time needs to be put into this to develop a proper system.

All-CKs is controversial because it's an extreme and repelling towards the more peaceful type of players. The current state is also controversial for its heavy paradox and lack of IC sense. The middle ground I suggested isn't because it's an optimal solution that everyone can fit in.

 

The three of us seem to mostly agree lol

It should become immediately clear the intentions a player has if their character has a low amount of hours and is killing off other players.. and if that's the case they'll be punished just as any other person would that refuses to play properly.

 

While i would prefer an all CK system and with the right ideas it could certainly work.. i have mentioned previously that it does not have to be primarily CK. I've even mentioned somewhere and i'll sum it up even poorly than i did the first time where some players are worried about losing their characters to the slightest reasons or bugs.. or rule breakers, and if a person were to die from a rule breaker or a bug they'd obviously be revived and it would not mark their account.

 

Otherwise.. you can only assume someone can die so many times to small scale reasons and if that's the case well there's the possibility to have an account reviewed and this can be by staff of course and there will be details or 'logs' for each marked death such as:

  • The exact time and date of the death
  • The username of the player that killed you

 

And so on and so forth. If the appeal were to be accepted then your character is brought back. I can't honestly remember all that i mentioned but that's just a poor summary of it and a small example of ways to work around it..

 

Edited by 1357
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20 minutes ago, Marcus. said:

We also are advocating different sides, I have always been on the legal side of things and know how to avoid trouble and have always put an emphasis on character development hence I am so attached to mine. It stems back from when I first created him, and the memories which are tied to it.

We certainly do and this proves what I said that the third way fits everyone and resolves the issue. You will find a better roleplay quality among your fellow legal roleplayers and I already explained my point of view.

10 minutes ago, 1357 said:

While i would prefer an all CK system and with the right ideas it could certainly work.. i have mentioned previously that it does not have to be primarily CK. I've even mentioned somewhere and i'll sum it up even poorly than i did the first time where some players are worried about losing their characters to the slightest reasons or bugs.. or rule breakers, and if a person were to die from a rule breaker or a bug they'd obviously be revived and it would not mark their account.

I understand where you're coming from, but as I said PKs and CKs should complement each other in a manner that guarantees a good RP standard and doesn't cause a paradox. A CK is too severe for any legitimate death as some things you simply can't control. For example, you may unknowingly be in company of someone who's targeted by a mob, they ambush him but kill you as well because you're a witness or with him or whatever, you both get CKd but you couldn't have done anything to prevent it and you lost a character into which you've invested hours. Of course it's realistic and even too much, it's simply not fair and at one point you would have people hunting for these kills just to ruin someone else's gameplay but not visibly break any of the rules. One life policy should have a place in action games where everyone plays in the same manner. The administration revolving the CKs would be insane as well, you'd have ten CK appeals every day.

On the other side, with a disregard for life CK thing you can decide whether or not you wish to risk a character and whether or not it's worth it. You would still be only PKd if you're killed without being directly guilty of anything, and the kill wouldn't be any less legitimate. You would respawn at the hospital with injuries you need to roleplay and lose a bit of memory before your death. The other side got rid of a witness and you didn't lose a character for nothing. Win-win for everyone.

This would be up to discretion of the handling administrator who would be expected to follow the set up standards.

Edited by eTimes
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1 minute ago, eTimes said:

it's simply not fair and at one point you would have people hunting for these kills just to ruin someone's gameplay but not visibly break any rules. One life policy should have a place in action games where everyone plays in the same manner.

 

On the other side, with a disregard for life CK thing you can decide whether or not you wish to risk a character and whether or not it's worth it. You would still be only PKd if you're killed without being directly guilty of anything, and the kill wouldn't be any less legitimate. You would respawn at the hospital with injuries you need to roleplay and lose a bit of memory before your death. The other side got rid of a witness and you didn't lose a character for nothing. Win-win for everyone.

 

While i agree it would suck to lose progress due to being in the same area as another player who's been targeted and as a result being killed for it.. so maybe for example then that could be a death strike on the account of the witness and after three or however many marks it would subsequently lead to that character being CK'd.. while player targeted on the other hand is CK'd without question. It's something that could work in a CK restricted system and these "death marks"  would technically replace the terminology of "PK" but still act as such.. except there's only so many times a player could be PK'd or in this sense so many strikes one would have.

 

But again if there are people who are making these new characters and they have a low amount of hours played.. and they're going around targeting mob bosses or killing or targeting any players in general then it would be pretty clear the intentions that person had before creating the character used to do so. There could restrictions on weapons for new players.. that's a really bad example but there are definitely ways to circumvent the issues that would follow along with augmenting CK's as the main practice.

 

But i'm all for CK only or finding ways to make both work but at the very least making CK's more common than they are now. Something like this would take a lot of thought.. because it is true that the server cannot be treated as a lab to test only to end up with disastrous results but there are ways to appease both ends of the table..

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54 minutes ago, 1357 said:

cut to keep size down

 

This is something I can come to terms with, though it needs to be more elaborate on certain parts. The main part I am looking at in this regard would be, shamefully enough, it is not always someone or barely ever someone with relatively low hours logged.

 

The obvious rulebreakers perse are not the main issue, since they are easily dealt with and usually swiftly as well. It is those who do it through what some may call character development. It's the people who try and actually do, find loopholes and call it character development. Hence it must be the utmost priority to minimize the chances of it happening.

 

Though I may suggest in consideration of this topic the following:

Establish a specific set of rules, independent from the current in-game rules, with the sole focus of creating a new, more immersive experience. This particular set should also clearly define what can/has to be considered a player-kill and what can/has to be considered a character kill.

 

For example:

 

A player-kill may derive from a player unknowingly happening upon roleplay that resulted in his/her death. (For example entering an establishment with no obvious signs of a shooting inside, and upon entering being shot & killed by one of the participating parties)

 

A character-kill may derive from a player knowingly acting against rational thought. (For example a player running towards, as opposed to away from a shooting. A player who has been stopped by police after a pursuit for a minor offense, such as being given a fine, opening fire upon the police forces on scene.)

 

Mind you these are just examples and the definitions are just something I made up relatively quickly without much forethought but hopefully enough to clarify my intentions. Also players should be subject to x amount of deaths per a certain period before staff reviews the situation, supposing the logs of the server are available and can clearly show what has happened for this death to occur. (i.e. chatlogs of the player who died and the killer, weapon used, damage dealt and where)

 

 

Edited by Marcus.
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19 minutes ago, Marcus. said:

 

The obvious rulebreakers perse are not the main issue, since they are easily dealt with and usually swiftly as well. It is those who do it through what some may call character development. It's the people who try and actually do, find loopholes and call it character development. Hence it must be the utmost priority to minimize the chances of it happening.

 

 

In which case i've also mentioned previously that documentation could be encouraged for criminal role play. I know it seems like a lot but it should be because killing off characters is clearly a big deal. Players will now essentially have the power to kill off someone completely so there needs to not only be incredibly detailed reasoning but also documentation on top of explanations in the case that the player killed would appeal the situation. If the documentation is clearly edited or revised, tampered with any way.. does not have clear reasoning among other things then the character is brought back. So this type of documentation doesn't = a quick 30 second clip on YouTube in 240p. There needs to be proof, good reasoning while also being shown in the proof. This should help with these types of players.

 

I have this very bland vision of a system and some parts may not even be possible but basically to delineate it as quickly as possible.. it's integrated into GTA Worlds current UCP and there is a specific section that lists a players characters that have been Character Killed and it would function "similarly" to how the 'Characters' section currently works.. well not really this section is more or less inherited and functions entirely different as it provides different types of information.

 

There can be a script if possible it could work as a loop so every time a character /acceptdeath a mark is made on that specific players character. Now it's not the end of the world if a character receives a mark. If the chance a player dies from a bug or a rule breaker.. it can be reviewed or "appealed" and if so the mark is removed by the handling administrator and all is well..

 

These marks can include basic or even more detailed information and like i mentioned just a few posts ago:

  • The exact time and date the character /acceptdeath
  • The exact username the character was last injured by
  • Possibly the exact location the character /acceptdeath

And if this were possible any other information that would be useful to help create a case for appeal. Basically the forum wouldn't be used for reports and it would all be done within the UCP. 

 

Yes rules would need to be revised to accustom to the change if it were to ever be introduced and rules would need to be a lot more strict. There's a lot of things that can be done to make this work that i am almost certain no other server related to ours has tried before and with the right thoughts, ideas, time and perseverance i cannot see why this cannot be used. 

 

Again.. the system does not have to be one time death CK you're done.. new character good luck. It can be forgiving such as the death strike example on top of even what you mentioned in italics, yes.. 

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  • 1 month later...

I'm a new player to the server but i've done a lot of DnD related RP in the past. But wanted to try my hand at a modern setting.

 

Read the first 4 pages and the arguments from either side are the same with the ones im used to.

My opinion after all these years is this.

 

CK should exist and should be enforced when appropriate.

More below on when i believe it's appropriate after i explain a little.

 

The benefits of CK have been listed by the OP. I wont go into much detail here.

But please keep reading.

 

Playing in an enviroment without CK is like playing Skyrim and maxing out all your skills to 100 so you're a mage, blacksmith, figher, theif assasin who is also well spoken and a good merchant, wuutt! At some point you end up a superman with 40 businesses, 20 sports cars and 50 wives.

 

Also the RP enviroment gets too stale. After i meet a character for the 1000th time i dont to see them again. I want to see something new and fresh.

 

I also want to remind people that your character isn't you. A good book has an ending. A good movie has an ending. It might be sad, irrelevant or even unfair but have you ever watched a movie with no ending?

 

CK should be applied after sufficient RP has taken place imho.

 

When CK should be applied in my opinion

 

Example case 1

You attempted to rob a bank, ok you got shot but you respawn. Then you rob some guy, ok you didnt get caught good. You keep living the thug life but at some point in your 20th robbery you get shot. Ok so you've been robbing stores for a while and you had your fun. The scene was RP'ed in a fun way and you actually had fun before your character died. Now it's time to say goodbye and do something new and exciting.

 

Example case 2

You are a gangsta. You RP rivarly with another gang shooting each other, driving over their turf, exchanging insults, threats, generally getting into some fun gang RP. So after your i dont know 30th shootout someone has to die. They aimed you and you're dead. Well bro, you're a gansta.

 

So all in all, if theres a good reason to get a CK and the RP was detailed and not a crappy *draws gun and shotz lul* then its CK time (aka hammer time)

 

My opinion i think is a bridge between the hardcore CK and hardcore PK fans.

 

Also i would like to remind to people saying about character progression that this server doesnt even have an XP system like im used to. You dont lose anything at all grind wise and you get so much money on a new character its crazy. I could buy a house, a car and even have money to spend just by logging in.

 

Unless you love your 20 sports car so much, then i don't know what to say.

 

Also, do not RP illegal stuff or a cop then complain you got CK'ed. If you want to live longer as in real life, just be a civilian and dont rub people the wrong way

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On 5/25/2019 at 11:30 AM, Ethanol said:

That's life. If you're smart about it you'll live longer, just like in real life. 

 

Having an all powerful character loses all meaning when no one can kill you. 

well said

 

CK's should be more frequent

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