Quash OOC Qualified Immunity

[MxnSterx]

FIRST AND FOREMOST

Just a friendly notice. This post is not written with the intent to attack LEO RP'ers, but to protect the interest of the community as a whole. This is written from the best of my knowledge and SUBJECTIVE POV, and no intent to hurt anyone whatsoever.


QUALIFIED IMMUNITY

What is Qualified Immunity? 

In the United States, Qualified Immunity is a legal principle that grants law enforcement agents certain immunity against criminal charges and lawsuits, as long as they haven't done anything 'blatant'. For what most of us common folk would be charged with ten years for assault and $300K+ in compensatory damages? Cops get a public reprimand, or in the worst of cases, just a salary fine/contract termination.

Then... what's the meaning of OOC Qualified Immunity? 

The same applied to GTA:W rules. For what most of us would get an ajail or ban? LEO RP'ers get away with only a warning or nothing at all. However, something that it's arguably unfair IRL shouldn't be applied in a RP server, where we all are to have fun.


EXPLANATION

It's no stranger to anyone that LEO RP'ers hold a MASSIVE responsibility and power within the community. So big it is, that they can make your RP experience miserable with little to no consequences at all for them. Prison RP is not made for everyone, but this shouldn't be an excuse, at least if there were different approaches against people with 30+ criminal points, or who must go through a mandatory court case for whatever reason. 

IC Court Forum system is partially collapsed and the workload is massive. For fully-length cases (pre trial, openings and closings, cross-examinations, sentence hearing), you must wait 1 month AT LEAST, in most of cases,  to know if your character is going to get sent without charges, or otherwise, even if you're found guilty, you'll get released anyway on time served. This is completely unnecessary and a waste of RP potential to many afflicted.

And all this depends upon theis group. They can decide to take you in and freeze your RP if they feel like! The problem arises after the following. 

RULES PROTECT LEO RP'ERS

While the standards should be held higher for this group, we find out that it's not at all true. Rules protect cops, to the point that even the idea of defending yourself and going into a shootout might end in you being jailed. Also, the stereotype of 'super-cops', 'sworn enemies of the crime' and 'mary-sue ish' or 'Gary Stu', will get you imprisoned for breathing, to say the least. Many reports are circulating about cops who just pull over the classy SUV filled up with gangmembers, using petty reasons and just calling to handle the situation IC. Because they know that for pure statistics, they're going to find anyone with a gun and cash those cheeky arrests!

This is unfair, and the demotivation makes people just plea guilty to avoid the bureaucratic  'jam', avoid reporting, as they don't wanna waste hours of their free time searching for pointless reports, or just CK the character instantly and get done with the issue.

 
SHOULD THE SITUATIONS BE HANDLED IC? 

Yes, it should be. As I said, I'm not biased against LEO RP'ers. However, the problem is the situation we have GTA:W does not compensate. If you decide to sue a cop in a Civil Court? Your judgement will arrive within an estimate of 2 to three months! There's a big percentage of IC arrests that are illegal, and I've seen enough cases to know that at least 50%+ of everyone's charged counts could get dismissed easily due to illegal arrests, however, due to the aforementioned issues, the idea of going IC legally with the matter, is discouraging. 


WHAT SOLUTIONS COULD BE PROVIDED?

— Ending with OOC Qualified Immunity and use Iron Fist against LEO RP'ers. Someone with such responsibility should be found with a jail or faction kick, AT THE MINIMAL OFFENSE. This would equal the balance of power and put both legal and illegal RP'ers. Also, in this way, LEO RP'ers would think at least two times about arresting people unnecessarily, when they start getting people jailed or banned for MG, P2W mentality, or for doing X-Ray patdowns.

— Amend the 'Cop Killing Rule', which is highly unfair and kills the drama of a chase entirely. Although many sectors may criticize this, it can still be punished with CK's or bans for those who don't RP Fear properly. 

— Adjust the criminal point limit for a mandatory forum trial, to speed the process and end with the infernal length of the forums. 



Other solutions or opinions are welcomed here. I would like to please ask everyone reading to keep things civil and not to begin a shitpost war of legal vs illegal RP'ers, this post was based merely on my own experiences and some others from what I've seen in forums and my own RP colleagues.

 

[radreaper100]

this doesn't exist and isn't a thing, I've been faction banned for shit that isn't even a rulebreak before

[Akio]

From reading what you said, I kind of want to say this isn't the case. LEOs are also punished in the same way that non leo players are pushed as well.  The server rules apply to everyone involved, not to mention additional rules imposed whether it be by LFM or internally within the faction.  Perhaps if the examples you presented were actually the case then sure. But it's not the case.  Also take into consideration, a lot of factors are reviewed before players are punished, whether it be leo rpers or not.  However, that doesn't stop you from reporting LEO Rpers as they're also regular players of the server and are held to the same standard if not a higher one considering the roleplay they involve themselves in. You see a rule break? You report it, it's that simple. 

[F34]

From my experiences, I've seen LEO roleplayers get punished for rule breaks as anyone else would. I like to think this isn't the case but if there was evidence for the examples given to prove otherwise then I don't think this is a thing. 

[MxnSterx]

7 minutes ago, F34 said:

From my experiences, I've seen LEO roleplayers get punished for rule breaks as anyone else would. I like to think this isn't the case but if there was evidence for the examples given to prove otherwise then I don't think this is a thing. 

 

and so on

[Whiskey]

I don't really see how that particular playing being given a warning on the one rule they were actually found to have broken, baring in mind that plenty of criminal roleplayers also get let off with warnings all the time too... it's hardly an LEO exclusive thing. And I'm in agreement that admins are too lenient in general with the playerbase at large, but this idea that the LEO players get let off with rule breaking is opinion at best especially given for the most part reports against them are handled by non-LEO or at the very least admins not of the same faction.

 

You can't blame the court-system's lengthy process on the LEO roleplayers either, they have 0 control over that and the vast majority of them only apply charges to you that you actually earned and that is simply because doing otherwise would be a vast act of corruption IC which you need specific permissions for, with good reasoning. Doing otherwise quite literally gets you faction banned if you're caught.

 

The one thing I will say for your point about pulling over SUV's filled with gangsters... yeah, profiling happens. It does in the real world and it does in game too, the difference is in game we have to abide by common courtesy.  If you genuinely feel you've been targeted over OOC bullshit, take it to SD/PD leadership or LFM and they will genuinely work it out for you. I've seen multiple cases of LEO's getting into shit IC and OOC for not playing the game the right way. So I'm not sure what you're suggesting is done here, it is already all in place. Players just need to stop holding LEO's on this magical podium and not reporting them because "they all have admins in their pockets and everything goes in their favour all of the time." 

[borhoi]

So your proposed solution to the problem of LEO role players being given preferential treatment is to make it official server policy to give LEO role players harsher treatment.

 

Even if this were a real problem that existed - which it does not seem to be - there is no reason whatsoever to react to it by expressly establishing a policy that treats a certain group differently than any other.

 

Your disclaimer about this suggestion not coming from a place of personal disdain for LEO RP kind of fails to ring true when you go on to suggest,

 

Quote

...use Iron Fist against LEO RP'ers...

 

I understand that interactions with LEOs can be frustrating. I agree with you that many LEO RPers pursue arrests too zealously - especially with regards to traffic stops turning to searches a bit too often to the point that it can be a little silly.

 

However, as others have pointed out here and in plenty of other threads, the issue of soft, toothless punishments for rule-breaking is an issue across the board - not just one with LEOs. Suggestions like this only serve to deepen the OOC divide between legal/illegal players. Higher RP standards with an enforced ruleset should be advocated for in all types of role play - be it civilian, criminal, LEO, or whatever else.

 

This thread reeks of someone with a personal grudge airing out their frustrations. You can't just say, "Hey guys, not trying to be divisive or anything here" then proceed to go on and advocate for an "iron fist" policy against one segment of the community.

 

I'd advise you to report LEOs when you see them break rules just as you would report any other community member. If an admin rules on a report in a way that shows favoritism, take the appropriate action by staff reporting the admin in question. If you have specific issues with LEO portrayal that doesn't have to do with rule breaks, I'd also advise you to reach out to faction leaders in PD/SD/etc and attempt to raise your concerns. They'd probably be more receptive than you think.

 

Having a productive, good-faith OOC dialogue between people in different fields of RP is good. Blatantly suggesting that a segment of the community you dislike be treated more harshly is not.

 

-1

[demia]

there is no such thing as qualified immunity in GTA world. LEO roleplayers are regular players, they do not get special treatment because they are not special in comparison to the rest of the playerbase.

 

On 7/4/2024 at 2:53 PM, MxnSterx said:

RULES PROTECT LEO RP'ERS

Many reports are circulating about cops who just pull over the classy SUV filled up with gangmembers, using petty reasons and just calling to handle the situation IC. Because they know that for pure statistics, they're going to find anyone with a gun and cash those cheeky arrests!

This is unfair, and the demotivation makes people just plea guilty to avoid the bureaucratic  'jam', avoid reporting, as they don't wanna waste hours of their free time searching for pointless reports, or just CK the character instantly and get done with the issue.
 

i'm not sure if this is the issue that sparked this discussion, but as far as this goes, i'm going to say something that i and many other people tell legal roleplayers who have an issue with losing their guns to muggings. if you don't want your gun taken, you have two options. you can be hypervigilant of your surroundings to make sure you don't get mugged, in your case pulled over by the police, or you can not carry your gun. you cannot have something taken from you if you don't have it on you in the first place.

 

i do understand the argument about the court cases taking up to two months, however. ideally it wouldn't take that long and cases of possible poor policing get noticed faster, but JSA is a niche faction. i'm sure they are doing the best that they can with their numbers. 

[TBA]

There's no such thing as this - it's quite the opposite. Where most people would receive a stern warning, most experienced/LEO players would get at least AJ time as "they should know better." It's been like this for years.

[Wesson]

This doesn't exist