TheSaintEaon

What time zones are you guys in? I'm interested in hanging out to RP, but as I'm in an American time-zone I have a hard time getting RP with a lot of factions.

Another good night chilling with you guys. Even if a little tense at times.

If they don't hold it over your head, then having the record is pointless. The point of the record is so that it can be referred to and decisions can be made because of it. If its not being used, then don't keep the record.

Maybe. I think though that if someone is a known troublemaker, metagamer, and DMer, that's going to be on their record for awhile. Do you think that someone that does an excessive amount of these things is going to be able to be active for 12 to 18 months and not continually rack up more reports? Under my idea, you have to have No new reports in order to get your slate wiped clean and any new report starts the timer for all of the existing reports all over again. Meaning any serial offenders are still going to have records accessible. OOC Ejections from factions based on OOC Ruling in any case excluding factions such as the PD are not acceptable unless the infraction was committed against the faction that person is in. I don't know if guild banks are like a thing here, but for example: If someone stole from the faction's bank and asset transfered it over to an alt. That faction should be allowed to remove that dick and he deserves the multiple A-jails or temp bans he gets. However if a dude is RPing a cop who's been down on his luck or awhile and then in RP he one day snaps and shoots a repeat offender, and that later gets voided by an admin due to poor portrayal or something, I don't think that's a valid reason to remove someone from a faction. IC actions that result in OOC consequences should not affect IC. OOC Kicks are legitimately metagaming and if you have Generic Gangbanger #6 hanging around your faction trying to join it and you think he's not a good fit, CK him. I don't think there's a single illegal faction on the board that doesn't include the right to CK people who fuck up ICly. If he's fucking up OOCly, report him to the admins, they'll probably be happy to remove another troll.

While they did not expressly state that, it is implied by their stance. If having a record available shows growth, then by that same logic, not having a record shows no growth. I might be wrong in that assumption and if I am, he's free to clarify and I'm happy to clarify my thoughts as well ^.^ My thoughts are actually similar to what you posted, with the aside of, the community doesn't get to tell a player what they do and do not accept based upon their OOC records. OOC records at the most should be restricted to Admins for the purposes of decision making or agencies like the PD who do PF Licensing, specifically in regards to said license. A player or player run organisation that uses OOC Reports or A-Jails to determine the validity of a roleplayer is metagaming by definition. The fact that they are allowed to still be on the server means they are by definition a valid player, and so using OOC records against them is actually to be in violation yourself. Which ultimately brings us back around to the point I was trying to make earlier, what is the point in having a record if it can be so old that its functionally irrelevant? Personally I could see like two ways to resolve this: First no player or player run agency can ask to see your OOC Records. They are sealed and that is between the player and the Administration. The second is that records after a certain amount of time if no further infractions are committed, then the infractions should be removed. I think either is acceptable.

An interesting answer. Why do you feel you're entitled to be shown the growth of a person or roleplayer, and further why do you feel that expunging of a no longer relevant record and thus cleaning the slate of a person is somehow showing less growth?

Fair enough I guess. I was just hoping you had some reasoning behind that other than "Because"

"Because you've still done it?" Doesn't win the argument though. If you got a-jailed, then had zero infractions for a set period of time, you've done that too. You committed the crime, taken the punishment, and been rehabilitated as best as the system can muster. "It doesn't really matter" is your stance, not mine. I think it does matter. I think if someone joins a pretty hardcore RP server and in their first 2 weeks gets flagged for poor portrayal, learns from it, improves, and doesn't have the issue anymore a flag like that should be stricken from their record. If all it takes to make a record not matter is you taking time to explain that you've improved, then the record doesn't really matter, and if the record doesn't really matter there's no point in keeping it. The record only matters if the player repeatedly breaks rules and constantly wracks up A-Jails, and even then it should only really matter to Admins or things like PF Licenses where said player would get easy access to things that could be used to make other people's times significantly worse. For someone who one time had a bad day, got a-jailed, and never let it happen again, there's no point in keeping a record on them or have them present it. You're the only who wants to keep records forever though, I've justified my position to you, justify your position to me. If by your own words it shouldn't matter, then why should we keep those records? Bear in mind that "Because you did it" is not a particularly strong argument, as in the presupposed situation, you also didn't reoffend for a significant portion of time.

I think you're kinda making my point. If you can just explain that your only infraction was years ago and you've learned from it, and you've had no infractions sense, and your employer be fine with that, why did that employer need to see that infraction to begin with? If the argument is "If you really have learned, it won't matter what's on your record." then why keep the record?

"If you'd give people the ability to appeal and remove their past punishments from their profiles at a later date what point is there to punishing at all." Is terrible logic. The point of punishment is to correct undesirable behavior, not to brand someone for eternity. That said, I don't think there should be a set "after 1.5 years from this date this punishment will be expunged." I think it should have a few factors, like if a year passes and you don't get any more OOC action against you, then maybe it should be dropped, but if you step out of line even once and get another a-jail or whatever, I think it should reset them timers.

I think there should be some appeals. I have exactly one A jail on my record and it was given to me by someone who at the time was a trial admin and I don't believe it was handled fairly. In fact it was one of the largest reasons I quit outright about a year ago because it left me with such a bad taste in my mouth. To put it shortly, I got an A-Jail for at the time according to this admin, lying about a forum report and getting shitty with the other people in the thread. I could handle the a-jail for getting shitty with the people in the thread. I have an issue with the lying though. I was asked to be a witness to an incident I was not apart of but saw. I guess because I had no RP in the logs because I wasn't technically apart of the incident and because I was only like a week or two old at the time and didn't think to screen shot other people's RP, the admin assumed I was lying to waste time. When I got A-Jailed for lying to staff I took that as a personal insult. Punish me for something I actually did, not something you think I did but have no real evidence of. It still bothers me anytime I have to submit my record for things like PF Licenses because I feel like lying to staff is one of the WORST things a player can do and I don't feel I earned that brand. I would be nice to not have to carry it around one day.

Was a good time hanging out with you all last night.

Even if you make that stretch, and it is a big stretch, one in ten is high. Again, 45,000 according to the LAPD in a city of 4 million. That's like one in a thousand. Also just because you knew someone at some point in your life who might have joined a gang does not mean you have "ties" to a gang. Ties imply some sort of bond, having known someone who did a thing at some point of your life. You also seem to have the idea that in LA everyone lives in the ghetto or in lower middle class neighborhoods. That's not the case. As bad as the South Side might be, there's still Hollywood and Beverly Hills in LA as well. Home to the ultra rich and some of the most famous colleges in America. The fact of the matter is for as famous as LA's gang problem has been made through pop culture and the rap industry, it exists within a town that is even more famous for its other industries. By your logic if all it takes to be affiliated with something is to know of someone who was in the thing once, then by that logic, you must be a girl scout because you probably met one at some time. But that's enough of this, I don't think we're gonna change anyone's mind and we're derailing the topic at hand.

Never called you stupid. Called your claim stupid, which it was, and still is. There's no way that 50% of LA is Gang Affiliated or aware of gangs. That's an insane thing to think. Even if the statistics don't include past gang members who've got to jail, died, or left the gang life you don't get close to that actual number. There's only 115 inmates in all of California in prison, so unless 100% of them are in prison for being in gangs, both male and female, the idea that they're simply in prison is out. And even if you do include 100% of all inmates, you're still only at like 2%. The math doesn't add up. The population numbers just aren't there. I'm sorry you're just wrong.

Even if that's only recorded, the idea that you jump from 1/10th of 1% to 50% is so unrealistic the claim is insane. Also like @knppel said, everything is too high. If we forced people to use real life stats we'd have less than 1 gangster. Only about 15 Military Vets. Probably less than 10 business owners. The setting couldn't function.

You're gonna trash my statistic and instead come up with something as impossible as a city with 50% gang ties? I'm hoping you forgot the /s or something. Edit: What you said is so hilariously stupid I just had to look at it. The population of LA is 3.9 Million. According to the LAPD there is just over 45,000 gang members in the city, which is a lot, but no where near 50%. Close to 400K would be 1%, so Gang Members in LA make up just about .01% according to the LAPD, which means my number I gave you was high. You can have .15th of a person, not even 4.5 people. If we're staying accurate to the numbers.

That's kinda how I figured it was. Part of my reason for starting this thread was in the confusion that sort of stuff caused. It was like "So I need to get a PF for defense so that I can try and get enough money to start to find suppliers to maybe consider one day doing illegal things without getting immediately shot, and then if I do want to do illegal things or find myself in a situation where I have to, I then have to find an illegal weapons supplier, make sure to use his weapon and not my PF one so that I can do what RP necessitates I need to do without breaking server rules." and in that regard you can start to see where the rule seems convoluted lol. But honestly, knowing I can tell my friends "look just don't be stupid and do things that OOCly don't make sense and you'll be fine to use your PF license as you need to. Just be aware, if you get caught you're gonna get in a lot of IC shit." really clears up a lot of my confusion and issues. It also helps deal with the fact it seems like a lot of street suppliers sell to people within their own faction before anyone else, making it kinda frustrating for outsiders to even find weapons to buy.

I think this depends on the state: In both Colorado (where I got my first CCW) and now in Florida, you have to attend a class to get your CCW and then file it with the local police department. ID is required for the class.

To back this guy a bit, There are people who have said its easier to obtain illegal fire arms in cities with tight gun control laws (like Chicago and Los Angeles) than it is to obtain a legal one. Additionally, I'm fairly certain Official Factions get monthly supplies for illegal weapons, drugs, and money no?

Than you sir. As far as I am concerned the confusion with this thread has been cleared up and its good to lock unless other people feel like hanging out and talkin' about it still.

Thank you @Sam2 and @Fancy Toothpaste for the replies. Both make sense. I didn't think about how easy it is to create a throw away and just leave them online for 40 hours. I was naively assuming most people would just have their main character and thinking "Well even if some dumb 21 year old gang banger got a legal fire arm, let him be stupid. Its illegal to just "lose" your firearms so if he tries to cover it up, bring him up on suspicion charges and take his license for unlawful disposing of a fire arm and give him a prison sentence." But that actually does make a lot more sense.

Maybe its the definition of "gang" that's causing the issues. I for one plan on doing illegal things, but not robbery, because like you mentioned that's a whole level of derpiness and just general kinda stupidity. Does Gang specifically define: Street gangs akin to the bloods and crips, or does it also apply to MCs, Mafias or Triads as well?

To start, if this is posted in the wrong area or breaking some kinda rule, obviously lock it or move the thread. I don't really make posts here often so this might not be in the right spot or something, and if that's the case I apologize. The reason I'm making this thread though is the general strangeness of some of the OOC rules surrounding PF Licensing. Specifically the part about, if you get a fire arm via legal means (going through the PF/CCW process) you are generally forbidden to use these weapons for illegal things OOCly. I don't get this. I am a fairly new account so there may be a huge discussion that I'm not privy to about why this is the a thing (and if that discussion does exist, please PM me the link and feel free to lock this thread), but I really don't see why that has to be an OOC Rule. I don't know how much of the staff/server is EU, but as an American, we have rules that aim to help stop the use of legally purchased fire arms illegally. For instance if you have mental illness that has been adjudicated by a court, you're a violent felon, or you're displaying behaviors that indicate you might be a threat to other people, you can have your Second Amendment rights revoked. Even non-violent felons actually have their 2A rights revoked and have to go through a process to regain those rights once their debt to society is paid. I feel like it wouldn't be too much of a stretch in GTAW to have these laws apply. Instead of outright blocking IC behavior with honestly convoluted OOC rules, just allow the police/courts/political systems ICly to play out and punish offenders. If the argument is that it would make it very easy for criminals to acquire legal fire arms to then use illegally, I think that's a bad argument. There are more fire arms in America that are registered (not even counting the illegal ones) than there are citizens already. If the police are competent (and they seem to be), and the other IC systems at play work, the IC laws should take care of most problems anyway. So to end my rambling, and give a tl;dr: Why are the OOC rules against using legal fire arms a thing. Why don't we use IC systems to control these issues. In your opinion if this can be changed, should it.

Dude a friend had something like that almost happen yesterday. Chilling outside our apartment in one of the better parts of town, three mexican dudes pulled up to her and upon seeing she was alone and not doing anything, produced ski-masks, put them on and attempted to kidnap her only to be scared off when another chick exited the building. Now, personally this story is hilarious to me because the masked up after the victim was able to ID them, and despite claiming to be armed, fled when another woman who was seemingly unarmed appeared, even though at that point they were masked already and wouldn't have been easily identifiable.

Honestly the worst kind of roleplayers on this server are the insular roleplayers. You know the guys, I know the guys. They're any race or organization of character that refuses to RP with people outside of their Ethnicity/Faction. I think that's probably why a lot of Asian Characters get hate, because a lot of the time they don't really socialize outside of other Asian characters. (If you RP an Asian Character, this doesn't mean you specifically, just the whole of it generally). Also Asians aren't the only ones who do this. No one I RP with even bothers going into the hood to look for illegal weapons/drugs because at this point we assume that if we aren't immediately robbed, the dealers are just going to make some off handed comment about how we're under cover cops and tell us to fuck off rather than make some money. There's also a lot of High Society RP that also is pretty exclusive and private unless you're a scantily clad chick at which point they suddenly have all the drugs and free VIP passes you could want. Also in terms of the amount of people you see RPing any one job or race: To give it some perspective, America has a population of 328 Million people of which its estimated that around 1 million are involved in a gang of some sort. That's a whopping .3% of the population. That means in all of Los Santos, if we're maxed out on population, in order to not over represent gang members within our population, you are allowed to have 4.5 Gang Members. And that's if you assume National Number is the same as the local number. In reality its going to be much, much less. It's really kind of silly to argue about population when you look at that. Asian's make up 10% of LA's population? So the max Asians we can realistically have is 150 if we're at Max. One of their pinky toes can maybe be a gangster or street racer, but not the whole foot.