Stop the grind shaming

[Kimberly]

On 12/14/2018 at 9:32 AM, Ethanol said:

It comes down to 2 very simple things which we're hoping to solve with the new job/economy system: 

 

1. 98 percent of people who mine or fish do not RP at all. This has been the reality every since the first jobs were scripted in around mid 2017. I do assume the other 2 percent actually RP it however if you think about it, what are you RPing when you mine? 

 

a. You drill into a random mountain with a jackhammer. This is not modern (or any type of) mining. If you google mining you'll get an idea of what actual mining looks like 

b. You collect the ore and put it in a boxtruck (most likely). The truck does not fit mining at all and there's a good reason for it yet people don't really consider any RP factors when mining, they just try to get the fastest vehicle with the biggest truck.

c. This is where any element of RP dies if the flawed system wasn't bad enough until now (By jackhammering a random mountain instead of doing actual mining in a quarry ). You actually DRIVE THE TRUCK that delivers the ore to its destination. You just turned from a miner into a driver. There's no IC logic to explain this, you just randomly switch jobs.

d. You then turn from a driver into a factory employee and start refining the ore. If you google ore refining you'll see how it's performed and why someone who mines or moves the ore would not be able randomly switch over and do that as well. This is the second time you switch jobs ICly for the sake of 'mining'. 

e. You actually sell the product. You are not some factory executive or sales employee, why is the person who mines the ore, then magically becomes the driver who moves it around then magically becomes the factory employee who refines it selling the ore? 

 

The job is completely flawed from start to finish and makes no sense ICly. Most people don't even attempt to RP it but even if you do try RPing it you're essentially working 4 fullytime jobs which are hard on their own. Aside from that you are not RPing the effects of mining which would be very demanding. 

 

2. No one treats mining as a job. People make money and then become rich. The IC reason behind it? There is none, a person literally goes from manual labor to millionaire overnight. Is the paycheck to blame? Yes. Do people completely ignore the fact that they are miners and break development and continuity by magically forgetting about ever doing the job? Also yes.

 

If your character goes mining, your character is a miner! The jobs are not OOC. How many people mine on the server? A bunch. How many people label themselves as miners? Close to 0.

 

---

To sum it up, these sort of RPGish SAMP/MTA era jobs need to die off with SAMP/MTA. They have no place on a RP server with high standards in my opinion, which is why they're being replaced with jobs which are: 

 

1. Fully integrated into the economy and don't drop money at you from the sky

 

2. Require actual RP to perform.

 

You'll still be able to work your job as much as you want, however it'll involve RP. Some jobs will barely require you to interact with people, however, they will also be fixing the major RP and development/continuity flaws jobs such as Mining and fishing create. 

 

P.S: The economy will majorly benefit from it as well but that will be explained once they're introduced. 

you will be the reason i return to role playing 

[Gerda]

Script jobs are bad and non RPish - everybody knows that. But it serves the purpose of creating middle and rich class of characters, who can spend their money on RP services, that creates RP jobs invented by players. So by removing script jobs and filling the gap by current RP-ish jobs you are actually not fixing the problem, because current jobs are low income (ICly and OOCly). Also, for example, for my char there is no difference between Servo job, 24/7 store and mining, because she will not do them ICly anyway. 

 

I think we have two options:

1. To create paychecks delivered by server to the player businesses and owner of the business will decide the salary for their employees. 

2. Create a reputation system, when first char is starting poor and as it gets good reputation, second char can start rich straight away.

[Koko]

8 minutes ago, Gerda said:

I think we have two options:

1. To create paychecks delivered by server to the player businesses and owner of the business will decide the salary for their employees. 

2. Create a reputation system, when first char is starting poor and as it gets good reputation, second char can start rich straight away.

1. The system in place is meant to do exactly the opposite of this, and limit how much money is created by the server. Plus, I don't think that giving more money to business owners for free will make them more likely to pass it onto their employees. Many businesses already pay fair wages for what the server's economy looks like, in 100% player-run businesses. 

 

2. Why? Name changes already allow for you to start with your assets when you CK/change character anyway. Considering how absolutely subjective it'd be to judge a player's "reputation" unless you used variables that don't matter such as hours played (particularly when it comes to giving them free money), I think the current system is fine.

 

Several complaints seem to boil down to "But I can't get rich quick enough with current systems!" and to be fair, that's kind of the point.

[Gerda]

34 minutes ago, Koko said:

1. The system in place is meant to do exactly the opposite of this, and limit how much money is created by the server. Plus, I don't think that giving more money to business owners for free will make them more likely to pass it onto their employees. Many businesses already pay fair wages for what the server's economy looks like, in 100% player-run businesses. 

 

2. Why? Name changes already allow for you to start with your assets when you CK/change character anyway. Considering how absolutely subjective it'd be to judge a player's "reputation" unless you used variables that don't matter such as hours played (particularly when it comes to giving them free money), I think the current system is fine.

 

Several complaints seem to boil down to "But I can't get rich quick enough with current systems!" and to be fair, that's kind of the point.

 

1. You can make a formula, not just give money to business owner. Like tiers of paychecks. Currently businesses that pay wages are hospitality businesses (Night clubs) and mechanic shops. That's it. If you came up with an idea for your business, that not fits those two- you are doomed to grind. (My char was in Magnolia Records and I remember poor Bell farming to be able to pay his employees at least something. I was RPing receiving fat paychecks aaand went to grind to get money OOCly ) Because of that ppl burn out quickly and loose interest in game. Basically if there is no cash on characters, how can they afford services from businesses with low traffic? 

 

2. So basically you are assuming, that every character wants to work towards being rich. And then player needs to CK this char to create a rich one. What if first char doesn't want to be rich? What if I want to keep that char and have second one with different fate?

 

It's not about getting rich at all. It's about RPing different income characters, not only RPing poor hoods.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Gerda

[Koko]

12 hours ago, Gerda said:

 

1. You can make a formula, not just give money to business owner. Like tiers of paychecks.

So then what's the risk for the business owner? You just get money funneled to you so you can pay for your expenses? There's already a system of Government grants and loans to help through not crash during the initial stages of setting up a business, but honestly if you're hiring employees you probably don't need and definitely can't pay it's mostly your mistake if you ask me. And again, you're talking about injecting money into the market through scripts that generate MORE money rather than move the money in the server.

13 hours ago, Gerda said:

If you came up with an idea for your business, that not fits those two- you are doomed to grind.

That is, unless you find interesting ways to get funding by making events tied to your business, for example. If you intend to sit there and do a 100% RPed job that generates little RP or revenue by itself, then yes, not a lot of money is going to come your way. A record label as you present it pays different artists an amount or another because of the money they feel they can directly bring back to their label in the form of sales of some kind. If you're paying astronomical amounts for someone who won't bring you that revenue, then it's also poor business judgement. 

 

13 hours ago, Gerda said:

2. So basically you are assuming, that every character wants to work towards being rich.

Never did I say that.

 

13 hours ago, Gerda said:

And then player needs to CK this char to create a rich one. What if first char doesn't want to be rich? What if I want to keep that char and have second one with different fate?

I didn't say you HAVE to CK a character to have a rich one, all I'm saying is a way to start with a rich character is to inherit the assets of a previous character through a name change. If you want a character with a different fate, then create it or file for an asset transfer, that's also a possibility.

[alina2137]

I can't take some people seriously here.
They complain about the economy, and about it being broken, with so little money to be earned.
At the same time they praise the $200,000 bonus that they got for sitting on their ass.
This is a consequence of trying to take a literally communist system and desperately tweaking it to make it work with capitalist standards. This is not a political off-top so don't give me shit, but use it as an analogy if you really have to.

Why do y'all expect them to give you more money if you already got this much for free? If you want more, be a good dog and help the regime inject more money into the economy by grinding your ass off, because that's how it works in democratic, capitalist states.

This bonus seems like an awesome idea, you don't need to grind and you can live for free and just roleplay, but at the same time it has led to this - everyone being poor, with no future, no creative jobs, no opportunities and therefore it has created a lazy community, that just rolls with having free money cuz why the fuck would they complain about free cash? And the other people - grinding their asses off or (as mentioned before by someone else) simply stacking up bills for running some ABSOLUTELY BORING AND SHITTY ass bar or club, because of the GOV bonus.

There is a very small sum of people who move out with something creative, but it usually gives them zero profit.
If we could inject money into the economy by roleplaying, then there would be no issue.

This leads me to another problem - the server (most of the time successfully) trying to force everyone into a fucking business, faction, over-all a group or something along those lines.
There is no place for freelancers to earn money, and it doesn't matter how creative you are, simply fuck you, join a faction cuz that pays a lot and your problem is solved. I get it we're trying to bring people together, but forcing it on me personally just made me feel uncomfortable with the fact I have to rely on so many things just to get my career started IC. We get people trying to roleplay alone, selling their product and trying new things, and it's a hustle compared to getting paid a fuck ton in a faction like PD or FD for not doing anything most of the time.


 

[thot_banned]

7 hours ago, hentai! said:

I can't take some people seriously here.
They complain about the economy, and about it being broken, with so little money to be earned.
At the same time they praise the $200,000 bonus that they got for sitting on their ass.
This is a consequence of trying to take a literally communist system and desperately tweaking it to make it work with capitalist standards. This is not a political off-top so don't give me shit, but use it as an analogy if you really have to.

Why do y'all expect them to give you more money if you already got this much for free? If you want more, be a good dog and help the regime inject more money into the economy by grinding your ass off, because that's how it works in democratic, capitalist states.

This bonus seems like an awesome idea, you don't need to grind and you can live for free and just roleplay, but at the same time it has led to this - everyone being poor, with no future, no creative jobs, no opportunities and therefore it has created a lazy community, that just rolls with having free money cuz why the fuck would they complain about free cash? And the other people - grinding their asses off or (as mentioned before by someone else) simply stacking up bills for running some ABSOLUTELY BORING AND SHITTY ass bar or club, because of the GOV bonus.

There is a very small sum of people who move out with something creative, but it usually gives them zero profit.
If we could inject money into the economy by roleplaying, then there would be no issue.

This leads me to another problem - the server (most of the time successfully) trying to force everyone into a fucking business, faction, over-all a group or something along those lines.
There is no place for freelancers to earn money, and it doesn't matter how creative you are, simply fuck you, join a faction cuz that pays a lot and your problem is solved. I get it we're trying to bring people together, but forcing it on me personally just made me feel uncomfortable with the fact I have to rely on so many things just to get my career started IC. We get people trying to roleplay alone, selling their product and trying new things, and it's a hustle compared to getting paid a fuck ton in a faction like PD or FD for not doing anything most of the time.


 

p r e a c h

[Mitch]

7 hours ago, hentai! said:

simply stacking up bills for running some ABSOLUTELY BORING AND SHITTY ass bar or club, because of the GOV bonus

Gov bonus HAS to go, it's literally a money printing machine. Bored? Oh, open a bar and slap $500 on the entry fee and get a cool extra $1'000 per person who comes in, woah! Look at that, impressive, you put SO MUCH WORK INTO IT. Nah, Bonus needs to go if people like it or not. 

[StoneFire]

8 hours ago, Mitch said:

Gov bonus HAS to go, it's literally a money printing machine. Bored? Oh, open a bar and slap $500 on the entry fee and get a cool extra $1'000 per person who comes in, woah! Look at that, impressive, you put SO MUCH WORK INTO IT. Nah, Bonus needs to go if people like it or not. 

I learned about this just yesterday talking to some friends, I was like DAFUQ they get? I'm not gonna hide the fact that my business rely on grinding jobs for now otherwise there would be no profit to it and wouldn't be able to expand and spread the word in hope that more people learn of us and start calling us to have components delivered instead of them just getting it themselves, this is a hole I really hope for patch 1.5 to fix to bring at least some more diversity to the economy rather than just clubs/bars and garages.

[Heyste]

8 hours ago, Mitch said:

Gov bonus HAS to go, it's literally a money printing machine. Bored? Oh, open a bar and slap $500 on the entry fee and get a cool extra $1'000 per person who comes in, woah! Look at that, impressive, you put SO MUCH WORK INTO IT. Nah, Bonus needs to go if people like it or not. 

Yeah. Gov bonus is taken out of the governmental bank, which gets fed from all of the taxes and fees we pay.  Getting rid of that would mean governmental agencies get paid more and the city would have a better budget for other roleplay projects and new systems like the business stimulus / affordable housing program.