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Tr1bal

Stop the grind shaming

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Tr1bal    245

I don’t understand on why it is looked down on and ridiculed when someone likes to “grind”. I personally enjoy “grinding” aka mining , I do not do it mainly for the money but rather because I RP it as a job of my redneck character. I find it relaxing. I do not RP the mining part itself but just being a simple truck driver. Waiting out while the heavy machines fill my HVY Biff truck. Sometimes I come to the server to just RP working and avoid the big crowds and socialising as I get enough of the latter irl. That does not mean I can’t handle the situation if it all goes to /do’s and /me’s at some point. With the same logic everybody have towards grinding – putting out fires and chasing bad guys like FD and PD do as their everyday job is actually grinding too. Not to mention the criminal organizations, oh lawdy! Let’s not even go there. My point is that we all should be able to do what ever makes us happy. We all got into this server through the same application system that validated our level of RP.

Image result for neolithic wheat grinding

Edited by Tr1bal
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Rheotic    91

You may RP it, the majority doesn't. I find it ridiculously stupid to even compare mining RP to criminal organizations, PD or FD. Each and every scenario is roleplayed, unlike mining. Not to mention you get a lot less money "grinding" PD or FD than mining. What I find even more stupid is that you mention that criminal organizations grind? Illegal factions are watched closely and made sure everything is roleplayed correctly and developed thoroughly. There's not even one aspect of grinding in illegal organizations other than roleplaying for hours and developing your faction for months, unlike mining where you can literally grind it, just like in an MMO games. Mine, sell, repeat.

 

You may stand out of the bunch and may actually do it for RP and money on the way, but you can't expect people not to hate on it when the majority just grinds it endlessly. It is what it is.

Edited by Rheotic
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Ethanol    203

It comes down to 2 very simple things which we're hoping to solve with the new job/economy system: 

 

1. 98 percent of people who mine or fish do not RP at all. This has been the reality every since the first jobs were scripted in around mid 2017. I do assume the other 2 percent actually RP it however if you think about it, what are you RPing when you mine? 

 

a. You drill into a random mountain with a jackhammer. This is not modern (or any type of) mining. If you google mining you'll get an idea of what actual mining looks like 

b. You collect the ore and put it in a boxtruck (most likely). The truck does not fit mining at all and there's a good reason for it yet people don't really consider any RP factors when mining, they just try to get the fastest vehicle with the biggest truck.

c. This is where any element of RP dies if the flawed system wasn't bad enough until now (By jackhammering a random mountain instead of doing actual mining in a quarry ). You actually DRIVE THE TRUCK that delivers the ore to its destination. You just turned from a miner into a driver. There's no IC logic to explain this, you just randomly switch jobs.

d. You then turn from a driver into a factory employee and start refining the ore. If you google ore refining you'll see how it's performed and why someone who mines or moves the ore would not be able randomly switch over and do that as well. This is the second time you switch jobs ICly for the sake of 'mining'. 

e. You actually sell the product. You are not some factory executive or sales employee, why is the person who mines the ore, then magically becomes the driver who moves it around then magically becomes the factory employee who refines it selling the ore? 

 

The job is completely flawed from start to finish and makes no sense ICly. Most people don't even attempt to RP it but even if you do try RPing it you're essentially working 4 fullytime jobs which are hard on their own. Aside from that you are not RPing the effects of mining which would be very demanding. 

 

2. No one treats mining as a job. People make money and then become rich. The IC reason behind it? There is none, a person literally goes from manual labor to millionaire overnight. Is the paycheck to blame? Yes. Do people completely ignore the fact that they are miners and break development and continuity by magically forgetting about ever doing the job? Also yes.

 

If your character goes mining, your character is a miner! The jobs are not OOC. How many people mine on the server? A bunch. How many people label themselves as miners? Close to 0.

 


To sum it up, these sort of RPGish SAMP/MTA era jobs need to die off with SAMP/MTA. They have no place on a RP server with high standards in my opinion, which is why they're being replaced with jobs which are: 

 

1. Fully integrated into the economy and don't drop money at you from the sky

 

2. Require actual RP to perform.

 

You'll still be able to work your job as much as you want, however it'll involve RP. Some jobs will barely require you to interact with people, however, they will also be fixing the major RP and development/continuity flaws jobs such as Mining and fishing create. 

 

P.S: The economy will majorly benefit from it as well but that will be explained once they're introduced. 

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Tr1bal    245
30 minutes ago, Rheotic said:

You may RP it, the majority doesn't. I find it ridiculously stupid to even compare mining RP to criminal organizations, PD or FD. Each and every scenario is roleplayed, unlike mining. Not to mention you get a lot less money "grinding" PD or FD than mining. What I find even more stupid is that you mention that criminal organizations grind? Illegal factions are watched closely and made sure everything is roleplayed correctly and developed thoroughly. There's not even one aspect of grinding in illegal organizations other than roleplaying for hours and developing your faction for months, unlike mining where you can literally grind it, just like in an MMO games. Mine, sell, repeat.

 

You may stand out of the bunch and may actually do it for RP and money on the way, but you can't expect people not to hate on it when the majority just grinds it endlessly. It is what it is.

Technically you are bashing me right now. You assume my simple trucker RP is trash and can't be compared to anything. You should not cast judgement towards a entire entity based on some bad apples on that said group but rather concentrate your effort to sort out those apples. And if the entity itself is flawed on its technical construct then the "bad apples" can't be blamed as they are just the followers of that system. Nah im just fucking with ya, I know what you mean. I address most of my points to the second quote. Long story short - we need a job reform.

 

26 minutes ago, Ethanol said:

It comes down to 2 very simple things which we're hoping to solve with the new job/economy system: 

 

1. 98 percent of people who mine or fish do not RP at all. This has been the reality every since the first jobs were scripted in around mid 2017. I do assume the other 2 percent actually RP it however if you think about it, what are you RPing when you mine? 

 

a. You drill into a random mountain with a jackhammer. This is not modern (or any type of) mining. If you google mining you'll get an idea of what actual mining looks like 

b. You collect the ore and put it in a boxtruck (most likely). The truck does not fit mining at all and there's a good reason for it yet people don't really consider any RP factors when mining, they just try to get the fastest vehicle with the biggest truck.

c. This is where any element of RP dies if the flawed system wasn't bad enough until now (By jackhammering a random mountain instead of doing actual mining in a quarry ). You actually DRIVE THE TRUCK that delivers the ore to its destination. You just turned from a miner into a driver. There's no IC logic to explain this, you just randomly switch jobs.

d. You then turn from a driver into a factory employee and start refining the ore. If you google ore refining you'll see how it's performed and why someone who mines or moves the ore would not be able randomly switch over and do that as well. This is the second time you switch jobs ICly for the sake of 'mining'. 

e. You actually sell the product. You are not some factory executive or sales employee, why is the person who mines the ore, then magically becomes the driver who moves it around then magically becomes the factory employee who refines it selling the ore? 

 

The job is completely flawed from start to finish and makes no sense ICly. Most people don't even attempt to RP it but even if you do try RPing it you're essentially working 4 fullytime jobs which are hard on their own. Aside from that you are not RPing the effects of mining which would be very demanding. 

 

2. No one treats mining as a job. People make money and then become rich. The IC reason behind it? There is none, a person literally goes from manual labor to millionaire overnight. Is the paycheck to blame? Yes. Do people completely ignore the fact that they are miners and break development and continuity by magically forgetting about ever doing the job? Also yes.

 

If your character goes mining, your character is a miner! The jobs are not OOC. How many people mine on the server? A bunch. How many people label themselves as miners? Close to 0.

 


To sum it up, these sort of RPGish SAMP/MTA era jobs need to die off with SAMP/MTA. They have no place on a RP server with high standards in my opinion, which is why they're being replaced with jobs which are: 

 

1. Fully integrated into the economy and don't drop money at you from the sky

 

2. Require actual RP to perform.

 

You'll still be able to work your job as much as you want, however it'll involve RP. Some jobs will barely require you to interact with people, however, they will also be fixing the major RP and development/continuity flaws jobs such as Mining and fishing create. 

 

P.S: The economy will majorly benefit from it as well but that will be explained once they're introduced. 

I kind of agree. Its because of the greed people have. They do wanna get rich. I personally think the scripted jobs generate so much wealth that I just bet my money on football games to get rid of it. Im bit different. I loose my RP feeling if I have too much money or one of my cars starts to feel too fancy. And as you said the mining job as a script don't make any sense - that's why I am RP'ing as a trucker. The mining part is made by so called NPC's. But I manage them so that they won't get involved or influence a RP situation if it coms to that(For example NPC drilling operator calling 911 when I get robbed.) 

 

But I think the RPG's elements should be re-evaluated and put into better use. RPG elements and the true heavy RP should be combined. Its like the incredible graphics of GTAV that just give people motivation to RP and do interact with the visible items. Its the same with RPG'sh elements - they spawn will. If the quality of people playing on the server is good and RP level high then the RPG elements are not the weakness but rather a strength that crates more random interactions here and there and also crates more industrial traffic to the roads.

 

But yes, all the scripted jobs should be redone so people could not use them to quickly get rich.

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Franelli    146

The main outstanding issue has to do with players who show zero roleplay while executing the script commands solely for in-game profit.

 

I personally have nothing against any of the scripted jobs as they're legitimate methods of making money on the server as long as the player is actually roleplaying the job properly (which in most cases does not happen). Ethanol pointed out several valid flaws within the miner job as we know it and those concerns are taken into account while revamping the entire player job system. I believe this will no longer be an issue once the update is out.

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Tr1bal    245
7 minutes ago, Franelli said:

The main outstanding issue has to do with players who show zero roleplay while executing the script commands solely for in-game profit.

 

I personally have nothing against any of the scripted jobs as they're legitimate methods of making money on the server as long as the player is actually roleplaying the job properly (which in most cases does not happen). Ethanol pointed out several valid flaws within the miner job as we know it and those concerns are taken into account while revamping the entire player job system. I believe this will no longer be an issue once the update is out.

To every problem, everybody is pointing out The Update - Rage 0.4 I believe? But at the same time there has been so many updates directed only towards the PD and FD. Maybe the solution with jobs like mining would be to make it a lot less profitable but at the same time place in all kinds of visual eye candy(visual ores, boxes, crates, machinery) and more complex interactions. I think I have been mentioning this from the day one as Ethanol just mentioned too that all of those jobs related to mining  should be separated plus only proper industrial vehicles should be allowed to carry ores and such.

 

Miners having visual ores and firemen having visual fires is fair right?

 

 

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Franelli    146

And that is pretty much what we have got planned. The entire job system is about to go through a massive revamp and is currently being worked on so don't let your hopes down mate.

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pogoyo    56

I agree with Ethanol's reply. I see the value in grind jobs only for the fact that they provided a stimulus to the active economy, but I agree that the majority of players do not engage in mining to develop a character and that, like Ethanol said, many people treat it as somewhat an OOC avenue to acquiring wealth to develop a character who is not a miner and will never acknowledge having been one. 

 

If there is truly a system in place that will incentivize interaction by somehow giving RP jobs steady and reliable income, I'm all for it. There is a balance that is necessary and if it is possible to have the same economic stimulus--consistently--from an RP job via new updates, that is infinitely better in every way and would certainly mean jobs like this are from the bygone era of SA:MP.

 

That said, I don't believe that the removal of mining would affect the portrayal of your character all that much. I would hope that the staff team have kept in mind that people want to RP jobs in different sectors and would have an avenue for you to continue to develop your trucker.

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WOLPHBYTE    54

Grind shaming..? You mean a logical approach to re-considering an RPG element on a heavy RP server?

I agree there's certain moments where you just don't feel like being around people even though you feel like being IG, but I think the major concern with these certain jobs is that it's becoming an in-game economics issue at some point (if not already). A mininum effort, maximum results kind of thing which eventually leads to GTA:W becoming RuneScape and everyone's just talking in /b with their fishing rods, hatchets and mining tools out. No CD, no fun interactions between people's characters except "You steal anything from that truck, I'll beat yer head in with a rock!". That's not a good way to go about things.

Scripted jobs shouldn't be or become the main focus of why people log in, nor make them rich, but could surely play a big role in entertaining a player when done right.

 

(You know, the whole pressing a button and something happens kinda thing that all animals love?)

 

Edited by Chigs

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Enko    5

Scripted jobs can be a doubled edged sword, but one thing that people like is to see things happen, one idea that was toyed about in the past was to have scripted jobs have some limitations to them, such as say a delivery job route would get like up to four routes per day with a few stops on each, enough to take up like an hour or so of time but something that was limited in being able to just grind for good, delivery job wouldn't feel the same if you didn't actually do anything with it, same would go for mining I feel among other things.

 

I believe the key is to try and eliminate the big negatives to these things but I would find it hard to see any jobs being enjoyable if they were removed alltogether in favour for pure RP, and I don't think it is a very popular experience to do RP on your own. It should be a tool to help people get into things but I would much rather see for instance someone doing trucking and a trucking company may see them do that and offer them work and RP as a result, but honestly people will always find a way to select the path of least resistence and people need to enjoy these avenues to take them.

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