This needs to be addressed badly.

[Ellix]

The thing is, even the penal code doesn't say to come to a full stop on a red light. It says that at a red light, you are supposed to stop to other cars (aka yield), which is exactly what Nervous and another management member stated. This was after the lights in the server were synced, by the way.

All I'm saying is that there is a lot of miscommunication around this, and it needs to be stated clearly what the law is. The PD members saying that it is unarguably true that you have to come to a full stop at every red light are unfortunately just incorrect. This needs to be stated more clearly than it has been, so there's not so much room for interpretation.

[Teddy Broosevelt]

37 minutes ago, Brett said:

This is exactly how it's written in the Penal Code too, btw. 

"If, upon approaching a junction containing traffic lights the traffic light displays a red light the driver must stop to other vehicles before continuing. If there are no other vehicles at the junction, the driver may proceed cautiously through the junction."

 

This can be misunderstood that if there are no vehicles present, then the driver may proceed cautiously without stopping fully. I have seen this discussion go back and forth in discord many times. I would clarify the penal code to reflect that regardless of a vehicle being there or not, a driver must stop at a red light before cautiously proceeding if that's the intended result. I have seen some PD officers have confusion on this as well. The language needs to be more clear.

1 minute ago, Ellix said:

The thing is, even the penal code doesn't say to come to a full stop on a red light. It says that at a red light, you are supposed to stop to other cars (aka yield), which is exactly what Nervous and another management member stated. This was after the lights in the server were synced, by the way.

All I'm saying is that there is a lot of miscommunication around this, and it needs to be stated clearly what the law is. The PD members saying that it is unarguably true that you have to come to a full stop at every red light are unfortunately just incorrect. This needs to be stated more clearly than it has been, so there's not so much room for interpretation.

Posted right before I did lol, but I completely agree with this as I stated above.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Teddy Broosevelt

[Kaz]

26 minutes ago, goddessoflife said:

You don't need confirmation, thats the penal code, thats how it is. Do you think the staff knows everything about laws? nah, sure not, nor can they be bothered to read it all over. I don't know everything either, but i'm well versed on the traffic aspect of it. 

Of course the staff won't know everything, but surely what they say goes?

[Ellix]

 

You slow down and yield at red lights, you don't have to come to a full stop if there are no other cars around. This is what the admins and server owner say, and what I believe the penal code says. I DO think it was written in a way that left it open to misinterpretation, but yeah. Either way, this needs to be fixed to state it one way or the other.

[Teddy Broosevelt]

4 minutes ago, Ellix said:

 

You slow down and yield at red lights, you don't have to come to a full stop if there are no other cars around. This is what the admins and server owner say, and what I believe the penal code says. I DO think it was written in a way that left it open to misinterpretation, but yeah. Either way, this needs to be fixed to state it one way or the other.

Exactly. Both @goddessoflife and @Brett have said it's been written to suggest that you stop at a red light, but management has basically said to disregard lights and just yield/slow down. This has led to confusion between PD/Civilians and I've seen several instances IC of people getting pulled over for rolling through a red light, even when no one was there. So we're not saying either party is wrong, but the language needs to be clarified to be one way or the other and not left to interpretation.

 

Either its:

- Red: Stop (Regardless if any cars are there or not), then proceed cautiously.

- Yellow/Green: Go.

 

OR

 

- Red: Slow down/Yield (Regardless if any cars are there or not), then proceed cautiously.

- Yellow/Green: Go.

 

Right now it comes down to who you ask. Management says one thing. PD/GOV says another.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Teddy Broosevelt

[Fergie]

3 minutes ago, Ellix said:

This is what the admins and server owner say, and what I believe the penal code says.

 

  

On 6/2/2020 at 4:04 PM, San Andreas Government said:

1212.) If, upon approaching a junction containing traffic lights the traffic light displays a red light the driver must stop to other vehicles before continuing. If there are no other vehicles at the junction, the driver may proceed cautiously through the junction. If the traffic light displays a yellow light that is going to a green light, then it is to be treated as a green light. If the traffic light displays a green light, the driver is not required to stop, and may pass through the intersection without stopping. Shall be charged with the applicable Title IV charge. (EX: Reckless Driving, Negligent Operation of Vehicle, Vehicular Endangerment)

 

Your screenshot was from March. The penal code about lights was updated in May. At the end of the day, if there is a contradiction it needs to be settled by @Nervous or someone in Management.

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by Fergie

[Ellix]

Why have you reposted the same bit of penal code that we're talking about? It clearly does not say "You must come to a full stop at a red light," it says if the light is red, you must "stop to other vehicles." This is also known as yielding. 

 

To your edit: Yes, it does need to be settled by management, that's the whole point of everything I've posted lol

Edited September 6, 2020 by Ellix

[Teddy Broosevelt]

5 minutes ago, Fergie said:

 

  

 

Your screenshot was from March. The penal code about lights was updated in May. At the end of the day, if there is a contradiction it needs to be settled by @Nervous or someone in Management.

 

I think it just simply needs a clarification and that would be cleared up real quick.

 

"If, upon approaching a junction containing traffic lights the traffic light displays a red light the driver must stop to other vehicles before continuing."

• This is fairly straight forward. Stop to other vehicles already present, then proceed cautiously.

"If there are no other vehicles at the junction, the driver may proceed cautiously through the junction."

• This suggests that if there aren't any other vehicles (as referenced in the first part of the sentence) then a driver may proceed cautiously through the junction. It does not say a driver has to stop when no other vehicles are present. This is the part that is misunderstood and has become a point of contention depending on who you ask. This is what needs to be clarified.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Teddy Broosevelt

[Syrike]

I'm failing to see why management needs to chime in, we have an IC penal code that says exactly what to do. As for whether the city is populated or not when was the last time you saw a city as well built as los Santos only having 50k people in it, you should be treating it like a populated city.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Syrike

[Pillsbury]

Just wanna clear up some things:

For one, when it comes to the Failure to Yield/STOP to a Traffic Control Device.. it says it in it's name, and specifically references the code that Fergie listed above.. Let's say I am going South on Strawberry Ave, crossing of San Andreas Ave.. my light is red, and I notice someone approaching from the left.. Players should STOP for those, that have the green light, and let them proceed. YIELDING comes into effect when their is no traffic visible, and the intersection is clear and safe to proceed through (noting, only for red lights).. Yielding can be commonly referenced as a "California Stop" (in California, it's only used for stop-signs, NOT LIGHTS) - you come to the stop-sign and no one is visible or present during the time.. people will "roll" the stop at 5-10 miles per hour.. and its *sometimes* reasonably allowed.. 

The main overall problem is that (from what I see as a PD Officer) people who forget to "yield" or "stop" are doing 100+ throughout the City, have no care in driving or paying attention, and then claim desync because while they were doing 100+ in the City, objects were not able to load in time and present with current sync (reference almost every PD/SD/FD scene, where someone drives through and goes "oh my bad guys it didn't load in time!"), and then continue to just FLY through every intersection they see. 

This is from how I have always seen it and enforced it as this way.. Sorry, but if someone else has the Green, and you have the Red, the person with the Green light becomes priority (I'm sure we have all been on those five minutes light where we all flick lights at eachother to let one another go, and I personally consider this reasonable, if the person with the Green wants to yield and let the other go).

While I understand the point of what Nervous made, the Penal Code is the law that is enforced in-character. Now, for the example, Ellix, you had that screenshot ready at a touch of a finger.. but you and only a dozen people probably saw that message. Not the whole server. On an IC standpoint, we follow the laws we are told to enforce, and honestly? It's always been like that. I also agree however, their should be some clarification when it comes to the actual lights, and deciding what is correct. I think however, what Nervous was trying to say, is that you don't have to sit at a red light until it goes green, and that has been very clear on the server for a while now (I could be wrong, maybe I am misunderstanding what he is saying), but, if someone is actively also at that intersection, and the light you are at is red? Your required to stop to let the other person go... that's just common sense at that point.. That's how we have resolved traffic accidents for--- god knows how long now.. If you had a red, you need to YIELD at the LEAST, but that doesn't mean plowing through an Intersection doing 60+ - and you consider it yielding because you "looked both ways quickly".. if another car is already at the intersection, or if you both roll up at the same time? Whoever has the red stops, and the Green light goes.. 

 

------- On a completely off topic situation: Let's continue to make sure this topic keeps clean, civil, and not to be bashing people/factions. This is generally a question/concern that is good to bring up and have a discussion about. -------

Edited September 6, 2020 by Pillsbury