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Problem with PD alts


DirtNasty

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Well this isn't the place for that man. We arn't here to shame people. I get that whole point where murder is shouted but no fingers are pointed. 

But here we have a community shouting "murder" and we dont actually need to point any fingers. We all see and recognize there are issues here to be addressed. But instead of coming at it as a community, people like Keane and such are trying to deal with it in specific situations. Not everyone is bitter, not everyone wants people to get in trouble, not everyone feels comfortable disclosing how they know certain things (like myself). What do you want us to do. Point a finger at someone, he points a finger at someone else and so on until a bunch of people are punished and in trouble over a general discussion aimed to improve community RP? 

Let's get a grip here guys. I don't need to say this again. General discussions are NOT the place to start witch hunts. 

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6 minutes ago, Rumbunctious said:

Okay, that's the third time you post that so let's take it from the bottom. You don't see the problem in being allowed to keep your rank upon CKing?

I indeed don't see the issue. How did someone keeping his rank affect you?

 

3 minutes ago, DirtNasty said:

Well this isn't the place for that man. We arn't here to shame people. I get that whole point where murder is shouted but no fingers are pointed. 

But here we have a community shouting "murder" and we dont actually need to point any fingers. We all see and recognize there are issues here to be addressed. But instead of coming at it as a community, people like Keane and such are trying to deal with it in specific situations. Not everyone is bitter, not everyone wants people to get in trouble, not everyone feels comfortable disclosing how they know certain things (like myself). What do you want us to do. Point a finger at someone, he points a finger at someone else and so on until a bunch of people are punished and in trouble over a general discussion aimed to improve community RP? 

Let's get a grip here guys. I don't need to say this again. General discussions are NOT the place to start witch hunts. 

No but you do say there is a problem, a problem I had no idea existed, but I don't always believe what people blurt out either, just because they say something, doesn't mean it's true. Without context, I just do not believe you and that you have faced any issue like that in-game. 

 

Just now, Flow said:

Naming names and wagging fingers doesn't help the issue by any means as @DirtNasty has said before. The whole topic is about addressing the issue, and amending rules to balance things out for a more healthy atmosphere. Steer the focus be where it's supposed to be.

But what is the issue really? How did it affect you ingame? Never said you needed to point fingers, but some context is always great. As I said I don't believe everything that people shout about.

Edited by goddessoflife
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There is truth in the OP but perhaps it wasn't explained properly. 

 

I believe(?) the OP is referring to the fact that role-players within law enforcement factions value the OOC standing within said faction more than they value the character that actually holds the position. This stems from said law enforcement factions being run like a real organization where progression seems organic instead of focusing on the IC aspect of what the hierarchy means, and the OOC meritocracy and capacity of a member to ascend to a particular position.

 

There are players from all walks of role-play who do that, so this isn't a law enforcement role-player concern. It's most visible in law enforcement factions because of how layered they are to an outsider. The same thing happens in an LCN faction where someone keeps recycling the same concept of... West Coast mobsters... if you guys want to get picky.

 

This is an honest opinion from someone who runs a segment that is meant to filter specific police role-players and determine, on an IC basis, if a character promotes to a supervisor position, and on an OOC basis, if the role-player behind that character is fit to portray a sergeant, lieutenant, etc.

 

Characters are infinitely important. The model we follow in the Sheriff's Department concerns OOC meritocracy and IC politics, and it was put forward by Bospy. In summary, it expresses how any member, no matter of position, can bring suggestions/concerns/discussions to the table and they will be treated equally. This happens — recent SD structure changes are the result of someone who just role-plays a detective. All suggestions are taken into consideration for as long as they have merit. We are consistent in expressing how members are equal, regardless of the rank your character holds.

 

On an IC basis, characters cannot become sergeants, lieutenants, captains unless the character holding that position is fit to hold said position. Not just because they been there, done that and bought the t-shirt, but because they have the proper development and IC connections to raise to that level: be it by being a power broker, a sketchy quid pro quo individual, questionable morals, corruption, what have you. There is a whole process dedicated for someone who enrolls into trying to become a supervisor to explain what steps they have taken in role-playing individuals in this regard, despite just simply knowing they have those credentials because you've role-played with them before. The IC dynamic instates that characters who want to progress need to get there through IC means: politicking. The OOC dynamic instates that it doesn't matter how long you've been in the faction (past a probationary period where you are either trusted or not to role-play police in the first place), but how qualitative you are in portraying such a character whilst also possessing the OOC skills to run functional divisions, do administrative work necessary for the faction's operations, and so on.

 

Sure, people's characters come to an end where they can no longer be cops. Cop role-players want to role-play cops so they'll just namechange to role-play cops. You're here to have fun and if you have fun by role-playing a cop, then role-play a cop. Now replace "cop" with "mobster", "gangbanger" and any other role-play avenue you can think of and make a conscious realization that you cannot expect someone to use their own free time in what you want. Rest assured, quality control is there.

 

Edited by liq
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28 minutes ago, liq said:

There is truth in the OP but perhaps it wasn't explained properly. 

 

I believe(?) the OP is referring to the fact that role-players within law enforcement factions value the OOC standing within said faction more than they value the character that actually holds the position. This stems from said law enforcement factions being run like a real organization where progression seems organic instead of focusing on the IC aspect of what the hierarchy means, and the OOC meritocracy and capacity of a member to ascend to a particular position.

 

There are players from all walks of role-play who do that, so this isn't a law enforcement role-player concern. It's most visible in law enforcement factions because of how layered they are to an outsider. The same thing happens in an LCN faction where someone keeps recycling the same concept of... West Coast mobsters... if you guys want to get picky.

 

This is an honest opinion from someone who runs a segment that is meant to filter specific police role-players and determine, on an IC basis, if a character promotes to a supervisor position, and on an OOC basis, if the role-player behind that character is fit to portray a sergeant, lieutenant, etc.

 

Characters are infinitely important. The model we follow in the Sheriff's Department concerns OOC meritocracy and IC politics, and it was put forward by Bospy. In summary, it expresses how any member, no matter of position, can bring suggestions/concerns/discussions to the table and they will be treated equally. This happens — recent SD structure changes are the result of someone who just role-plays a detective. All suggestions are taken into consideration for as long as they have merit. We are consistent in expressing how members are equal, regardless of the rank your character holds.

 

On an IC basis, characters cannot become sergeants, lieutenants, captains unless the character holding that position is fit to hold said position. Not just because they been there, done that and bought the t-shirt, but because they have the proper development and IC connections to raise to that level: be it by being a power broker, a sketchy quid pro quo individual, questionable morals, corruption, what have you. There is a whole process dedicated for someone who enrolls into trying to become a supervisor to explain what steps they have taken in role-playing individuals in this regard, despite just simply knowing they have those credentials because you've role-played with them before. The IC dynamic instates that characters who want to progress need to get there through IC means: politicking. The OOC dynamic instates that it doesn't matter how long you've been in the faction (past a probationary period where you are either trusted or not to role-play police in the first place), but how qualitative you are in portraying such a character whilst also possessing the OOC skills to run functional divisions, do administrative work necessary for the faction's operations, and so on.

 

Sure, people's characters come to an end where they can no longer be cops. Cop role-players want to role-play cops so they'll just namechange to role-play cops. You're here to have fun and if you have fun by role-playing a cop, then role-play a cop. Now replace "cop" with "mobster", "gangbanger" and any other role-play avenue you can think of and make a conscious realization that you cannot expect someone to use their own free time in what you want. Rest assured, quality control is there.

 

The same can be said for illegal factions.

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Indeed.

 

I now read that certain players feel there's something wrong with a player holding the rank their previous character had when they transit to a new character.

 

Whilst that is mostly true, it happens in specific situations: if a character is removed due to corruption for which the player had permission to role-play, they are allowed to start from scratch on a character where they are no longer allowed to role-play corrupt, at least for a particular period of time. This is to reinforce the basics of what you need: police. Corruption role-play is a niche that comes second.

 

If a police character is CKed, in 99% of the cases, it is mostly voluntary, e.g. you just decided that your character couldn't play off a player kill out of the situation they died in. It's completely fair for someone to return.

 

Putting circumstances aside, here's the deal.

 

Most of the time spent by someone to attain a position isn't based in development — this is for all factions, not just legal and/or law enforcement ones. It is to build OOC trust and pass the obvious OOC vetting processes and discussions. A new member isn't trusted. A seasoned member is trusted. Since you're already trusted to be at a specific level in the faction, there's nothing wrong for you to continue to be there, and that is a choice each faction leader has to make for himself.

 

What I'm saying is there's nothing wrong if your capo character gets whacked and you come back on a capo character under the guise of having run the OCG's operations someplace else but Los Santos. Oh boy the times I've seen Uncle Joey from Florida come back to replace LastWhackedMadeGuy™ and nobody bats an eye because said player is trusted, on an OOC basis, to perform to standard.

 

The same way a player is trusted to return to role-play a detective, sergeant or what have you in a law enforcement faction.

 

There is nothing stopping you from retaining role-players in an illegal faction and letting them return under other characters. There is no such rule. Of course, there is a rule against role-playing the same character with the same goals, aspirations and development: a character's job or position within whatever organized group they're from isn't the same as role-playing the same character.

 

So, it's up to the faction leader to decide what they want to do. Police faction leaders and respective faction management segments understand this concept and allow for members to return under specific, subjective criteria developed on a case by case basis. Illegal faction leaders could look into this practice if they feel it benefits them.

 

Perhaps this is the last topic someone wants to compare illegal role-play to legal role-play and say they're the same. They aren't, and the intrications are different.

Edited by liq
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Theres some decent attitudes on here mixed with some extremely toxic behaviour, if the second part of that statement applies to you perhaps you should consider coming down off your high horses and reflecting on the quality of your own roleplay and that of your faction. PD and SD are not without faults but neither are these illegal factions you hold in high regard, both types of RP are unique and require very different types of work to function properly, this is why things are the way they are.

 

The only solution to get either party here to understand the other is to experience both sides of RP because RPing a cop is very different to RPing illegal, no matter what you claim and vice versa.

 

Topic unlocked after a discussion with the thread owner, I expect actual discussion here and not pointless bashing without evidence.

Edited by Syrike
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  • Syrike locked this topic
  • Syrike unlocked this topic

Seems like the fuel in this fire has burned out a bit and that's good! To do a TLDR for everyone there has been some great points made in defense of the PD, iterating all the steps they do take toward ensuring quality in roleplay. There's also been points made that the types of issues people are stateing they have with PD can also be said for other factions. All these are valid points. We don't want to put anyone in the spotlight with this discussion, and perhaps I should of made the title reflect that a bit better. I will say that I personally believe that starting to address these issues within the PD is a great first step toward addressing them in the entier community, and therefore chose to put PD in the spotlight for that reason and am sorry if I'm attacking anyone with this as it needs to be a topic about everyone playing their alts as expandable and otherwise. But with that said the points were also made in terms of CK's and people simply starting new characters within the PD as opposed to criminal factions who have to start fresh characters. 

There is a WHOLE lot that started to get thrown around here, and because of this it totally makes sense why Syrike locked the thread for all of us to cool down for a bit. So we really need to keep this constructive and such. If you don't see an issue please do not come in here throwing out your opinion demanding an explanation and proof toward it. Let's constructivley try to think of ways we could help encourage people to take their characters safety more seriously. Let's try to think of ways we can discourage people from using positions to treat their time on server as a chance to let loose and shoot people (criminals and PD alike) 

Could there be rules set in place? Could PD members who CK be made to jump through the hoops again instead of reverting to their old position on a new character? Could we start punishing criminals for CKing out of roleplays and situations, or their players for not taking their characters safety into realistic consideration? 

These are things that we aughta be spitballing around with this subject. 

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I'd say that essential members should be pointed out and allowed to come back due to the importance of their presence in the faction, I also think that if PD has that liberty it should be given to any other faction for the same reason. 

Edited by Jola
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