Official Factions, Warehouses and Distribution

[xRandomGuy]

4 hours ago, Caporegime said:

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I agree with you on most points made other than the one related to drugs. While the points you made might be realistically true to the US, I think that this is one of those places we need to put the game aspect of things into play. The system I suggested is a very realistic way to produce cocaine and crack, and more can come into play for the other type of drugs. I don't think we really want to avoid the opportunity for players to roleplay the production of drugs and just have it immediately "shipped" and spawned by the server just based on the fact that this is the US. Keep in mind we are restricted to this map as this is a game, you can't fly to south america where you have your factory and field set up to do this type of roleplay so having that attitude is the same as saying no southern RP can occur on this server as there is no southern areas in it (even Sandy Shores is north to LS/Los Angeles).

Basically what I'm trying to say is we need to keep things as realistic and immersive as possible but while doing that, not hurt the gameplay by taking out aspects of the game and opportunities for players just because of it. On top of all; coca trees can be grown in the U.S although as said I agree with you that it's not really known to be done as it's much easier to do it in south america.

[Caporegime]

33 minutes ago, xRandomGuy said:

I agree with you on most points made other than the one related to drugs. While the points you made might be realistically true to the US, I think that this is one of those places we need to put the game aspect of things into play. The system I suggested is a very realistic way to produce cocaine and crack, and more can come into play for the other type of drugs. I don't think we really want to avoid the opportunity for players to roleplay the production of drugs and just have it immediately "shipped" and spawned by the server just based on the fact that this is the US. Keep in mind we are restricted to this map as this is a game, you can't fly to south america where you have your factory and field set up to do this type of roleplay so having that attitude is the same as saying no southern RP can occur on this server as there is no southern areas in it (even Sandy Shores is north to LS/Los Angeles).

Basically what I'm trying to say is we need to keep things as realistic and immersive as possible but while doing that, not hurt the gameplay by taking out aspects of the game and opportunities for players just because of it. On top of all; coca trees can be grown in the U.S although as said I agree with you that it's not really known to be done as it's much easier to do it in south america.

 

See, there needs to be more direction towards the proper importation and roleplay around said importation. Things shouldn't immediately be shipped, with this I can agree. It should take time dependent on what form of transportation the organization or individual decides and provides to the team, faction or not, who is in charge of it.  There are many more drugs they can produce than just cocaine, which is one of the few drugs that can't be produced in the US. 

 

Davis makes a great point in that drugs don't have a in game value, they should. They should be giving traits or effects that benefit the player and if a cutting system is put into place, the traits and effects can either be stronger or weaker. The proper weight system behind drugs and proper pricing is something people talk and complain to me about weekly. If we research the effects of drugs on real people in real life, we can then take aspects and bring them in game. All it takes is a bit of time and effort. Giving players a system where not only they can make money, as the life of a criminal is "high risk, high reward", but also give them a system that isn't just like all the others. Make them work for the drug and profits, not just show up at a building and click a button.

 

I will repeat this till my last day here in the realm of GTA RP; stop trying to balance roleplay OOC'ly. All actions IC should be dealt with IC. The majority of people agree with this but rarely do it. The only reason why guns are the way they are is because of the OOC fears of death matching or some other stupid reason. Instead of hiding behind fear, maybe, just maybe try give people a realistic system. The warehouse system isn't great and will never be great.  Davis, you state that it makes a realistic criminal environment. I don't know what criminal environment you're talking about, but there's nothing real about this. Recently I was engaged, along with others, in a in depth rant and debate with a discord user by the name of Jeff. Jeff stated that there were no possible ways to make money other than guns - I gave him a couple. He stated that these ways were not as 'valuable'. So right now we have a mentality issue with our players if they think like this and this is because the system they're all use to has spoiled them. How do we bring a proper gun system to the server that doesn't involve the magical use of a building that spawns guns? We start with the legal side of things and work our way to the criminal. 

 

There needs to be less OOC restrictions, a lot less. This "fear of stockpiling" needs to stop. Who cares if they stock pile? Who cares if the price of guns goes to 0? We shouldn't influence anything other than the maintaining of proper RP standards and any and all rule infractions. We need to stop influencing RP because we don't agree with something. This can also be directed towards the OOC pricing of guns and how it's the only system in the entire server that's inflated out the ass, why? Because we're afraid of someone getting one. People sign on the dotted line when they write an application and are accepted by one of our many great testers, their freedom here is dependent on their actions and the contract they signed says they know how to RP and what RP is. If they're not capable of adhering to their contract, then they should be removed. The Police are more than capable of responding to threats. The police have top brass that should be focusing on politicking and getting the numbers/stats down. The job of police shouldn't be pull over simulator 2018. Allow the Police to react to things IC before kneeing them in the nuts with OOC restrictions.

 

See what happens, I get going and don't stop and my response turns in a different turn. Lol

[Cerberus]

2 hours ago, Davis said:

Couldn't disagree more, giving the ability for anyone and everyone to create a faction and after a few weeks be able to pump out guns and drugs? It would create a system where factions do not need to rely on anyone. Every faction would be against one another because they would have no reason to ally. The whole concept of official factions is that they allow for a hierarchy of illegal organizations, just like it is in real life. Regardless of what you read via the internet, there is a select few organizations who call the shots, whether that's indirect or directly. Official factions should be a representation of that system IC. 

 

I agree with this. The official faction system works, and getting rid of it wouldn't be a good thing for the server.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Drug Related

[Bospy]

36 minutes ago, Drug Related said:

Couldn't disagree more, giving the ability for anyone and everyone to create a faction and after a few weeks be able to pump out guns and drugs? It would create a system where factions do not need to rely on anyone. Every faction would be against one another because they would have no reason to ally. The whole concept of official factions is that they allow for a hierarchy of illegal organizations, just like it is in real life. Regardless of what you read via the internet, there is a select few organizations who call the shots, whether that's indirect or directly. Official factions should be a representation of that system IC. 

 

Not entirely what I meant, I should've expounded upon it. I assume a drug system with dynamic growth will eventually come around, I meant strawman for regular factions would be great. There should be a means for unofficial factions to have their own dynamic supplies.

[Guest]

Official factions shouldn't exist. They don't represent an IC system, and they don't necessarily always call the shots, especially given for the current status of factions on the server.

 

Official factions never represented who calls the shots, but who has a better standard of roleplay, activity and what not, so that is not a proper argument, atleast not in my eyes.

 

By giving Official Factions control over the market, you essentially say: "this gang in south ls, that controls 2 blocks, is going to control the drug market for the entire server because I like their roleplay". The bikers in the county who have their ability to cook meth are effectively cockblocked out of the system when I'd dare say a MC is far stronger than any 2 block gang.

 

16 hours ago, Drug Related said:

I agree with this. The official faction system works, and getting rid of it wouldn't be a good thing for the server.

In what sense does it work? In the sense of if it aint broken dont fix it? There are better alternatives.

 

Allow them a free market and it'll regulate itself as they'll mostly race for better prices. An engaging drug script, that allows reproducing weed by obtaining seeds through processing, same shit for meth. I don't think cocaine should be anything but import based as I'm not sure where could it be growable in San Andreas, but hey ho.

 

I didn't say give anyone free reign to buy guns, no. That's the point of the order going through FM. A two week 2 member mafia shouldn't be allowed to place an order.

 

But what about a 5 months old mafia encompassing South LS? Should they be begging guns from the MC in Sandy Shores? Am I the only one who finds the warehouse + official combo counter intuitive and innapropriate?

Edited November 28, 2017 by Guest

[Davis]

15 hours ago, Bospy said:

Not entirely what I meant, I should've expounded upon it. I assume a drug system with dynamic growth will eventually come around, I meant strawman for regular factions would be great. There should be a means for unofficial factions to have their own dynamic supplies.

 

The thing with straw-man is that nobody has to work for the power that guns give you. At least with a faction obtaining official, it has taken them almost a year of creating and supporting role-play with high standards, and for that they should receive the reward of controlling the gun market. 

 

1 hour ago, the_criserk said:

Official factions never represented who calls the shots, but who has a better standard of roleplay, activity and what not, so that is not a proper argument, atleast not in my eyes

 

The better role-players should control what happens with guns and drugs. They've earned it and I much rather reward good standards then hand out the ability to half the factions on the server to just "equal" the playing field. If you're a new faction, you don't deserve to have power off the hop, you should have to earn your place in the criminal hierarchy. People often forget how important faction politics is.

 

1 hour ago, the_criserk said:

But what about a 5 months old mafia encompassing South LS? Should they be begging guns from the MC in Sandy Shores? Am I the only one who finds the warehouse + official combo counter intuitive and dumb?

 

Well, if the motorcycle club has been around for two years I don't see any fault in realism. I'm not sure where people have gotten the notion that because a mafia is a mafia, they're the all powerful entity. That's coming from an LCN role-player of 8 years. The people with the best role-play and the best standard should be given the responsibility to regulate guns.

 

What bothers me the most is that I don't see how opening the gun market to every faction either via the straw-man or requests allows for a healthy economic flow of weapons? How do you all figure that will go? If I can get my own guns and my own drugs all the time without any help from any other faction, then I won't need to ally. And if I'm not allied with you, you eliminate the political aspect of role-play. There is no co-operation and that's not realistic at all. 

 

Besides, any official faction with a factory should be role-playing how they get their guns. I also feel like majority of you whom feel this way are from LS-RP and in LS-RP, the official system and factory system was corrupted by biased and unfair admins, who still hold their positions today. If this system is properly regulated and perhaps some changes are made to what official entails, aside from good role-play and activity, maybe the system can more accurately select the best factions both IC and OOC. 

 

READ: After some thinking on this debate over the past week, I will say that I think it's maybe too far to let a factory have access to every kind of gun available in the server. Perhaps a faction should be forced to choose between two types of guns and they'd only be able to purchase those from the factory. Or maybe even a single type of firearm. 

 

Quote

I will repeat this till my last day here in the realm of GTA RP; stop trying to balance roleplay OOC'ly. All actions IC should be dealt with IC. The majority of people agree with this but rarely do it. The only reason why guns are the way they are is because of the OOC fears of death matching or some other stupid reason. Instead of hiding behind fear, maybe, just maybe try give people a realistic system. The warehouse system isn't great and will never be great.  Davis, you state that it makes a realistic criminal environment. I don't know what criminal environment you're talking about, but there's nothing real about this. Recently I was engaged, along with others, in a in depth rant and debate with a discord user by the name of Jeff. Jeff stated that there were no possible ways to make money other than guns - I gave him a couple. He stated that these ways were not as 'valuable'. So right now we have a mentality issue with our players if they think like this and this is because the system they're all use to has spoiled them. How do we bring a proper gun system to the server that doesn't involve the magical use of a building that spawns guns? We start with the legal side of things and work our way to the criminal. 

 

I should have explained myself better with different wording, because you're right, it's not realistic. Guns don't appear from magic houses but they could use role-play and imagination to fabricate how they got the weapons. The warehouse is a tool used to deliver an item in game. That item dictates which faction has power, because people care about their character getting PK'd for some reason (mostly their OOC ego of not wanting to get beat in game I presume). If you guys want to freely hand out the one thing that players respect, then be my guest. But you better replace it with something more valuable because people will get bored and stop playing, and factions will not interact politically, they will just war because everyone wants to be the head honcho. 

 

But this was never about stockpiling weapons. LSRP tried to put OOC price ceilings on guns and drugs and I'll never support that and I don't think any of you do either, it's basic economics. Just like Capo said, people should deal with a surplus and deficit of guns/drugs through IC means, not by crying to FM and Nervous about how they can't get guns. 

 

What I'm failing to understand though is everyone is bashing the current system and saying it's broken. I don't share that opinion cause I see things differently. But what do you all actually propose we do if we scrap this? 

 

Gun role-play and importation is one thing I do not think we can RP completely realistic or it takes away core game mechanics that players are used to. Drug role-play is completely broken and adding the "real life" effects is completely impossible. They stimulate your body IRL, stimulating your character will not have the same addictive qualities. Benefits and perks aren't enough to fix drug role-play. I'm all for adding a proper growing and importation system but that DOES NOT fix the core problem. They are invaluable. They have no use other than ascetic. They will not make a player money and therefore they want nothing to do with them. Not everyone is a high level role-player guys, as much as I wish everyone RP'd one hundred percent realistic all the time it's just not the reality we live in. Players like Jeff are half the server, and if you want to change the way they think a lot more needs to be looked at then the Official, Warehouse and Drug system, because they aren't the root problem. 

 

Capo makes a good point, PD honestly is quiet irrelevant. I don't mean this literally but here's the thing in illegal RP and PD. If I'm your average role-player I fear PD because they can jail me and it's boring in jail. But the good news is I get out of jail after some time and can play again. If I'm real smart? I will shoot it out with PD before I'm arrested so that I can avoid jail, and most do because they can plausibly argue it was realistic role-play. My point being is that things as a whole need to change, not one system being more realistic. You can't fix one and expect all of them to be fixed. If you want realism across the board, all the systems need to change drastically from their current state.

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Davis

[Cerberus]

1 hour ago, the_criserk said:

In what sense does it work? In the sense of if it aint broken dont fix it? There are better alternatives.

It works because it creates a criminal hierarchy, just like in real life. I know some people have written very long replies, but it's really just that simple. If there's no official, what's the point? People want something to look forward to.

 

There's a reason LSRP has had the offical factory system for as long as it has. You can shit on LSRP all you want, but that was one aspect of it that worked (the shitty management of it aside). It works, and it's a good system. Trying to rework it won't help anybody, and it'll just be a waste of time.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Drug Related said:

It works because it creates a criminal hierarchy, just like in real life. I know some people have written very long replies, but it's really just that simple. If there's no official, what's the point? People want something to look forward to.

 

There's a reason LSRP has had the offical factory system for as long as it has. You can shit on LSRP all you want, but that was one aspect of it that worked (the shitty management of it aside). It works, and it's a good system. Trying to rework it won't help anybody, and it'll just be a waste of time.

But did it? As time went on, several of these factions turned into hostile, elitist, disgusting factions that had a less than honorable end at the hands of a server description and/or takedown. I don't think we're supposed to shoot down new ideas cause the old ones work. May aswell get rid of the custom skins cause peds work, they're customizable aren't they?  Same for the upcoming money script. Why should we push such a ground breaking feature when money works fine as is and we'll just rely on the good will of the people not to powergame and metagame the laundering process, given its untrackable anyway.

 

I understand criminal hierarchy, but i don't agree with it being set by the official factions. The hierarchy is the stronger group, with stronger backing at the top. As is, official doesn't represent the strongest group. It can take a weak group, make it official, and now they are 100x stronger due to their newfound OOC status and distribution abilities.

 

It's not a waste of time, and I personally don't see such an argument valid. This update takes a long time to implement and get right, and it's not an immediate priority given RAGE. But shooting it down cause old works, even though a lot of people say it doesn't, then no. That's not right.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Guest

[Davis]

8 hours ago, the_criserk said:

I understand criminal hierarchy, but i don't agree with it being set by the official factions. The hierarchy is the stronger group, with stronger backing at the top. As is, official doesn't represent the strongest group. It can take a weak group, make it official, and now they are 100x stronger due to their newfound OOC status and distribution abilities.

 

I'm not trying to be ignorant or condescending but I have a legit question, what makes a faction strong to you? Their role-play standard or their IC capability to provide muscle and kill people? Because those are two different topics entirely. Official status is a recognition of role-play, not what they've achieved story/power wise in-game. So maybe the system of official doesn't need changing, just the parameters of what official entails. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Davis said:

 

I'm not trying to be ignorant or condescending but I have a legit question, what makes a faction strong to you? Their role-play standard or their IC capability to provide muscle and kill people? Because those are two different topics entirely. Official status is a recognition of role-play, not what they've achieved story/power wise in-game. So maybe the system of official doesn't need changing, just the parameters of what official entails. 

Both. In my eyes, the current way official operates is not proper as it can take a weak faction, that albeit has quality roleplay, into one of the strongest factions over night due to the bonuses it receives from warehouses.

 

If official faction recognizes roleplay purely, then it should not provide a game changing bonus such a weapon/drug warehouse, atleast in my mind.

 

A faction is strong based on its assets, member base, claimed turf and history. I'm not saying hand over official to factions that are pure quantity, no. But there needs to be a balance. If a faction is huge and possesses a lot of assets, does it make sense for it to have no access to obtaining firearms/narcotics but through another, potentially smaller, group?

 

That's the whole point of my suggestion. The recognition of their work can be done through this system similar to strawman by allowing them to purchase larger quantities of items, so long as they can afford them. You could also tie certain items to certain factions based on their backgrounds.

 

Street Gangs should have access to all creatable narcotics by the normal player base. 

MC's should have access to procuring methamphetamine and other sort of chemical narcotics. MC's should also have access to purchasing some firearms.

Certain types of criminal organizations (ie Cartels, Mobs, Mafias, outright Criminal Networks) should have access to purchasing different grades of firearms, importing cocaine, heroin, etc.

 

All which is done under the supervision on FM. All this does is simply get rid of the potential dangers brought by the warehouse system.

 

get me