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PapaDoc    310
25 minutes ago, eTaylor said:

Yes, because resorting to personal attacks instead of responding to the posted content always reinforces your position and arguments. Positively not a fallacy either. Would you prefer if I typed in African-American Vernacular English for your reading pleasure? I would most definitely be broken if I were to upset you with words.

Why are you bringing up African American vernacular? No one is taking it personally but your choice of words or should I say the grammarly assistant’s words aren’t helping your case. You aren’t doing anything but talking in circles. There’s no true substance in your argument against turf maps, put that in bold. 

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eTaylor    122
Just now, PapaDoc said:

Why are you bringing up African American vernacular? No one is taking it personally but your choice of words or should I say the grammarly assistant’s words aren’t helping your case. You aren’t doing anything but talking in circles. There’s no true substance in your argument against turf maps, put that in bold. 

I don’t know what makes you so entitled that you decide what vocabulary people use, but you certainly don’t make that decision for me. And you definitely burn your own credibility with your bullying tactics. Nonetheless, just because you say there isn’t an argument doesn’t mean I don’t have an argument.
 

You’ve yet to dispel any arguments that this map is metagame. In fact, you and fellow members in favor have repeatedly shown mixing IC and OOC in this thread. Fact is, the turf map is an OOC device that has IC enforcement, and renders IC affairs through OOC processes. These OOC processes subsequently run their course IC. This isn’t something we should strive for, and the mentally that this is perfectly acceptable demonstrates that we have an issue there. 
 

A map for the purpose of organization and oversight is something I can stand behind, as long as turf is being granted only to large established and proven street gangs. And only if that turf is applicable to comparable street gangs. We lack a graffiti system that marks neighborhoods traditionally so until that’s a possibility we have to adapt. A map managing these things for that purpose doesn’t infringe anyone, and gives a foundation when conflicts arise with trolls. Anything beyond that is egregious overreach. 

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ElDiablo    58
17 minutes ago, eTaylor said:

I don’t know what makes you so entitled that you decide what vocabulary people use, but you certainly don’t make that decision for me. And you definitely burn your own credibility with your bullying tactics. Nonetheless, just because you say there isn’t an argument doesn’t mean I don’t have an argument.
 

You’ve yet to dispel any arguments that this map is metagame. In fact, you and fellow members in favor have repeatedly shown mixing IC and OOC in this thread. Fact is, the turf map is an OOC device that has IC enforcement, and renders IC affairs through OOC processes. These OOC processes subsequently run their course IC. This isn’t something we should strive for, and the mentally that this is perfectly acceptable demonstrates that we have an issue there. 
 

A map for the purpose of organization and oversight is something I can stand behind, as long as turf is being granted only to large established and proven street gangs. And only if that turf is applicable to comparable street gangs. We lack a graffiti system that marks neighborhoods traditionally so until that’s a possibility we have to adapt. A map managing these things for that purpose doesn’t infringe anyone, and gives a foundation when conflicts arise with trolls. Anything beyond that is egregious overreach. 

Before this goes any further, I have to inform you that a debate amongst leaders of street gangs in the IFM discord has taken place and it has been decided on what to include on the map and its regulations. So you can refrain from participating on the topic and I think it should get closed since everything is being reviewed directly by IFM.

 

You clearly never understood the use of the map, and I tell you again, it's not metagame. We have told you many times as of why, while you and the rest of legal and law enforcement players commenting haven't said how can it be abused in a MG way.

 

Thanks to everyone who has participated on the topic though and for sharing your honest points of view.

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PapaDoc    310
6 minutes ago, eTaylor said:

You’ve yet to dispel any arguments that this map is metagame. In fact, you and fellow members in favor have repeatedly shown mixing IC and OOC in this thread.

- If you read what I wrote then you would know that there is no metagaming going on, you're just assuming there is because I said the turf maps should come with their own set of rules. If you were active in the gang community then you would know that there is a lot of unwarranted deathmatch going on with gangs that have been established for weeks but are waiting on their thread to be accepted. 

 

- If the turf maps were to be put on the UCP then how could it possibly be taken in character metagame wise? Other than people OOCly knowing that this faction controls an area. Is it metagame or are people who usually tie their OOC knowledge into their characters metagaming? It's a good question. I don't see how it is metagame at all regardless of how many players see it on their UCP, the rules are simple OOC information is OOC information while IC information is IC information.

 

- Simply don't take that information you stumbled upon OOC in-character and it's good. If admins were so concerned about metagame then why are players allowed to have threads to post roleplay on? That just means I can go thread to thread and look at whoever has a thread's roleplay and then use it to my advantage in-character, something most roleplayers don't tolerate or do. Now tell me is your argument strictly about metagame on this topic? That's all I can sum up your stance on this topic to. If a player is not wise or aware enough that this is a heavy roleplay server and that OOC and IC should be distinguished? Then that player shouldn't be playing the server at all.

 

7 minutes ago, eTaylor said:

I don’t know what makes you so entitled that you decide what vocabulary people use, but you certainly don’t make that decision for me. And you definitely burn your own credibility with your bullying tactics.

  • And this is a misfire because now you're trying to play victim. You just tried to bait me with saying that I prefer you should speak with "African American vernacular" as if I said you should. If you take the time to look at each player's responses on the thread you would be able to see there is no "African American vernacular" that you mentioned in any of the prior posts, it's obvious that you're just here to tug someone's nerves, yeah I joked that you were using grammarly and you got so offended by it that you tried to make it a race thing.

 

  • I'm unbothered son and you should be as well. I don't know what "bullying tactics" you are referring to but I sure as shit know that your argument against turf maps is not saying much of anything. You can pick and choose educated words all day and I'll just read them just like everyone else, but just because you use them doesn't mean that your view on turf maps is anymore valid than it was. Either way, stop taking what I say so personal bud, you seem to be on edge because of a great majority of the "ACTIVE" gang community's challenge to your position on this topic.

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eTaylor    122
47 minutes ago, ElDiablo said:

Before this goes any further, I have to inform you that a debate amongst leaders of street gangs in the IFM discord has taken place and it has been decided on what to include on the map and its regulations. So you can refrain from participating on the topic and I think it should get closed since everything is being reviewed directly by IFM.

 

You clearly never understood the use of the map, and I tell you again, it's not metagame. We have told you many times as of why, while you and the rest of legal and law enforcement players commenting haven't said how can it be abused in a MG way.

 

Thanks to everyone who has participated on the topic though and for sharing your honest points of view.

I know it may have gone unnoticed but I am a member of this community and an illegal roleplayer. As such I have a concern and a right to voice that concern accordingly. I have posted multiple examples and explanations of how the map in it’s originally suggested form is not contributing to the OOC culture and how it destroys IC functioning. What IFM eventually decides on is their prerogative, but you don’t decide who gets to participate and who doesn’t based on whether they agree with you. I for one understand the reality of these maps far better than you do having threaded both sides, but we’ll see what form it takes and how it works. Could be a good thing. 
 

51 minutes ago, PapaDoc said:

- If you read what I wrote then you would know that there is no metagaming going on, you're just assuming there is because I said the turf maps should come with their own set of rules. If you were active in the gang community then you would know that there is a lot of unwarranted deathmatch going on with gangs that have been established for weeks but are waiting on their thread to be accepted. 

 

- If the turf maps were to be put on the UCP then how could it possibly be taken in character metagame wise? Other than people OOCly knowing that this faction controls an area. Is it metagame or are people who usually tie their OOC knowledge into their characters metagaming? It's a good question. I don't see how it is metagame at all regardless of how many players see it on their UCP, the rules are simple OOC information is OOC information while IC information is IC information.

 

- Simply don't take that information you stumbled upon OOC in-character and it's good. If admins were so concerned about metagame then why are players allowed to have threads to post roleplay on? That just means I can go thread to thread and look at whoever has a thread's roleplay and then use it to my advantage in-character, something most roleplayers don't tolerate or do. Now tell me is your argument strictly about metagame on this topic? That's all I can sum up your stance on this topic to. If a player is not wise or aware enough that this is a heavy roleplay server and that OOC and IC should be distinguished? Then that player shouldn't be playing the server at all.

I have thoroughly explained this in previous posts. I have not made the argument that looking at the map or screenshot threads is metagame, whether you’re purposely being ignorant in an effort to drag this on or just going in circles. You have not introduced anything new to the discussion, and all the aforementioned points of discussion have already been covered and exhausted. 
 

53 minutes ago, PapaDoc said:
  • And this is a misfire because now you're trying to play victim. You just tried to bait me with saying that I prefer you should speak with "African American vernacular" as if I said you should. If you take the time to look at each player's responses on the thread you would be able to see there is no "African American vernacular" that you mentioned in any of the prior posts, it's obvious that you're just here to tug someone's nerves, yeah I joked that you were using grammarly and you got so offended by it that you tried to make it a race thing.

 

  • I'm unbothered son and you should be as well. I don't know what "bullying tactics" you are referring to but I sure as shit know that your argument against turf maps is not saying much of anything. You can pick and choose educated words all day and I'll just read them just like everyone else, but just because you use them doesn't mean that your view on turf maps is anymore valid than it was. Either way, stop taking what I say so personal bud, you seem to be on edge because of a great majority of the "ACTIVE" gang community's challenge to your position on this topic.

You’re purposely and maliciously using agitating language, and attacking me on a personal level. You’re attempting to further coerce my behavior with your negativity. Again, I don’t know where your entitlement comes from but you don’t decide on my vocabulary or use thereof. Go beat your drum. I type like this, deal with it. 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/29/2020 at 10:41 AM, MickeyO said:

Full support, I know where Bidi Bidi Bom Bom is getting at with this, at the moment any unofficial faction can create a clique and immediately get to beefing with an official faction, I've experienced it twice and it's quite frustrating.

 

 

And let me tell you why it's not an IC issue, do you think a Crip gang is just going to say fuck it and set up shop in known blood gang territory? No. Do you think the Hells Angels are going to just set up down the street from Mongols MC territory irl? No. Do you think Playboy 13 is going to say fuck it and set up a clique in MS-13 territory irl? No.

Supporting this concept as well. 💯💯

Edited by Trap-Money Scooby
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PapaDoc    310
1 hour ago, eTaylor said:

I know it may have gone unnoticed but I am a member of this community and an illegal roleplayer. As such I have a concern and a right to voice that concern accordingly. I have posted multiple examples and explanations of how the map in it’s originally suggested form is not contributing to the OOC culture and how it destroys IC functioning. What IFM eventually decides on is their prerogative, but you don’t decide who gets to participate and who doesn’t based on whether they agree with you. I for one understand the reality of these maps far better than you do having threaded both sides, but we’ll see what form it takes and how it works. Could be a good thing. 
 

I have thoroughly explained this in previous posts. I have not made the argument that looking at the map or screenshot threads is metagame, whether you’re purposely being ignorant in an effort to drag this on or just going in circles. You have not introduced anything new to the discussion, and all the aforementioned points of discussion have already been covered and exhausted. 
 

You’re purposely and maliciously using agitating language, and attacking me on a personal level. You’re attempting to further coerce my behavior with your negativity. Again, I don’t know where your entitlement comes from but you don’t decide on my vocabulary or use thereof. Go beat your drum. I type like this, deal with it. 

Again, just because you're an illegal roleplayer does not mean turf maps pertain to your route of illegal roleplay. This is for street gangs not MCs, Mafias, or whatever it is you do. I read your explanations and they've gone nowhere in terms of convincing me.

 

And stop accusing me of acting malicious toward you when you're the one throwing out blatant jabs at my in RL heritage/culture OOCly. "African American vernacular" / "go beat your drum"? Come on dude, get out of your mode of superiority. The reason I'm acting entitled is because this topic/suggestion involves a community that I'm directly involved in.

 

Other than that, I don't have to explain anything else to you. eTaylor, you can continue to use grammarly for your insults for my entertainment. I'm not going to throw back and forth jabs with a toxic person like you @eTaylor. You're making the thread about petty insults now because your logic was deflected by sound arguments from various players who support the move of this project and you're going next level with it by taking jabs. How about this? Reply to someone else instead of me rather than typing a hateful essay into the grammarly generator just to come back and be petty on a GTAW thread. I said what I've had to say, thank you.

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El Ghetto Man    163
Posted (edited)

The map isn't going to cause or spark MG, period. We're attempting to help FM fix the last FM's mistake by bringing a much needed feature to the server, one that was planned but NEVER added.. I understand that people want most things to be IC, but it's definitely not IC when u run into a random unofficial faction that's been camping ur fac's territory for months under yours and FM's noses and get DMed by a faction that'll never get accepted. Only to be told by the admins that they were within rights to shoot you.

 

We need means to report these people and expel them from our areas, so that we can actually roleplay in peace without worrying about subpar rpers grouping up and deciding 'hey lets start a gangster disciples set on this street that's been ran by a fucking Sureno gang for close to 6 months'.

 

This is something that most MC & Mafia RPers don't have to deal with, it's strictly a problem that gang RP'ers experience, and the only fix for said problem is to have an OOC turf map detailing where each gang faction roleplays, along with which areas are free for the taking by other gang factions, because right now it's far from an IC issue it's an OOC one that needs t be fixed, so all this crap from players like @eTaylor really means nothing because they're not involved in the gang roleplay community, they aren't experiencing the issues that we're experiencing and struggling to get FM to fix.

 

oh and fyi @nateX there's only one gang in Little Seoul, the other faction is a mob and (as far as I'm aware) isn't interested in claiming a territory, because mafias don't claim turf, gangs do.

 

Also, just to counter the OOC bullshit and metagaming accusations, how much metagaming does the current ucp map (map.gta.world) inspire? Alot I'd assume is what your answer would be, considering that the map showcases mainly IN CHARACTER information such as where certain businesses are, where purchasable properties are along with where rentable properties are. You don't see gang RPers on the forums with their panties in twists about that, do they? You want to know why that is? Because we understand that it isn't metagame, it's a helpful OOC tool that will assist roleplayers in getting ahold of property, and it does assist said roleplayers in getting ahold of properties.

 

The gang map would work the same way, it'd simply show that certain areas are taken by existing gangs, and there'd be multiple other places on the map for new gangs to possibly take over when they start their faction.

 

IRL you can just look out the window and see whether or not there's a completely new gang on ur block while you're inside (offline), but you can't do that shit ingame, whether you're ingame or offline and I for one can't be staying up for 24 hours constantly just to make sure there's no sub-par clowns that are gonna ruin my rp at some point in the future.

Edited by El Ghetto Man
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eTaylor    122
8 hours ago, PapaDoc said:

Again, just because you're an illegal roleplayer does not mean turf maps pertain to your route of illegal roleplay. This is for street gangs not MCs, Mafias, or whatever it is you do. I read your explanations and they've gone nowhere in terms of convincing me.

Convince you of what exactly because I’m agreeing with the turf map, as I’ve explained before. I merely don’t agree with the notion that you have to consult the map before roleplaying and that it expands in scope beyond gang roleplay and thus infringing on others. 
 

8 hours ago, PapaDoc said:

And stop accusing me of acting malicious toward you when you're the one throwing out blatant jabs at my in RL heritage/culture OOCly. "African American vernacular" / "go beat your drum"? Come on dude, get out of your mode of superiority. The reason I'm acting entitled is because this topic/suggestion involves a community that I'm directly involved in.

I’ve been faithfully discussing the topic at hand until you decided to attack me for my use of words and construing what I’m saying. I’m not going to apologize for using correct terminology. It is factually called African-American Vernacular English, and beating your drum is an idiom - look it up. I’ve shown you kindness and respect, you answered with disingenuous statements and hostility. The irony is that we want the same thing, but you’re too blinded to acknowledge that. 

 

8 hours ago, PapaDoc said:

Other than that, I don't have to explain anything else to you. eTaylor, you can continue to use grammarly for your insults for my entertainment. I'm not going to throw back and forth jabs with a toxic person like you @eTaylor. You're making the thread about petty insults now because your logic was deflected by sound arguments from various players who support the move of this project and you're going next level with it by taking jabs. How about this? Reply to someone else instead of me rather than typing a hateful essay into the grammarly generator just to come back and be petty on a GTAW thread. I said what I've had to say, thank you.

This encapsulated your attitude and cause well and transparent for everyone, even outside your bubble. Your hypocrisy in accusing me of jabs only to simultaneously jab yourself is laughable, if you don’t wish to engage don’t engage. I’m free to respond accordingly and am within my right to voice my opinion. You don’t dictate what people say or how they think.

 

7 hours ago, El Ghetto Man said:

The map isn't going to cause or spark MG, period. We're attempting to help FM fix the last FM's mistake by bringing a much needed feature to the server, one that was planned but NEVER added.. I understand that people want most things to be IC, but it's definitely not IC when u run into a random unofficial faction that's been camping ur fac's territory for months under yours and FM's noses and get DMed by a faction that'll never get accepted. Only to be told by the admins that they were within rights to shoot you.

 

We need means to report these people and expel them from our areas, so that we can actually roleplay in peace without worrying about subpar rpers grouping up and deciding 'hey lets start a gangster disciples set on this street that's been ran by a fucking Sureno gang for close to 6 months'.

I definitely agree with that, as I’ve explained before. Thank you for clarifying as wel, I suspect there may have been some miscommunication back in the thread. This is in part what I mean with being adaptive with the lack of a graffiti system and being able to secure your turf only when your established, organized and large enough.  And not something people can grab and crave into each other like it’s turf wars 2020. Anything that helps in the removal of DM crews encroaching on large gangs is a significant improvement.
 

8 hours ago, El Ghetto Man said:

This is something that most MC & Mafia RPers don't have to deal with, it's strictly a problem that gang RP'ers experience, and the only fix for said problem is to have an OOC turf map detailing where each gang faction roleplays, along with which areas are free for the taking by other gang factions, because right now it's far from an IC issue it's an OOC one that needs t be fixed, so all this crap from players like @eTaylor really means nothing because they're not involved in the gang roleplay community, they aren't experiencing the issues that we're experiencing and struggling to get FM to fix.

I still agree with you but I’m not sure who you’re talk to. I’m disappointed to note that you see my concerns as crap, considering I am involved with gang roleplay and have struggled significantly with these exact issues. While the issues I had were exacerbated due to timezone differences, as I’ve said before anything that helps combat DM crews is an improvement. I’m just not looking forward to having to log in every day and first consult some map anyone can carve apart which is what a lot of people were discussing in the early part of the thread. 

 

8 hours ago, El Ghetto Man said:

Also, just to counter the OOC bullshit and metagaming accusations, how much metagaming does the current ucp map (map.gta.world) inspire? Alot I'd assume is what your answer would be, considering that the map showcases mainly IN CHARACTER information such as where certain businesses are, where purchasable properties are along with where rentable properties are. You don't see gang RPers on the forums with their panties in twists about that, do they? You want to know why that is? Because we understand that it isn't metagame, it's a helpful OOC tool that will assist roleplayers in getting ahold of property, and it does assist said roleplayers in getting ahold of properties.

 

The gang map would work the same way, it'd simply show that certain areas are taken by existing gangs, and there'd be multiple other places on the map for new gangs to possibly take over when they start their faction.

 

IRL you can just look out the window and see whether or not there's a completely new gang on ur block while you're inside (offline), but you can't do that shit ingame, whether you're ingame or offline and I for one can't be staying up for 24 hours constantly just to make sure there's no sub-par clowns that are gonna ruin my rp at some point in the future.

It’s not an equal comparison, but the map as you just described is and I don’t think anyone is against the map as described in your post. 

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Wirbelwind    187

Since I feel you're unable to talk it out without being at each other's throats, I'm going to lock this thread.

I'm sure administration is discussing this, though. So, please be patient and thank you!

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