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Law Enforcement and "Bad Shoots" on the server


Leemabean

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Apoligies for misspells and grammar as I'm on mobile.

 

Firstly the views I express here are my own and in no way represent the views of the Sheriff's Department or any other agency.  

 

I want to talk about this: 

 

Simply put I think LFM has made the wrong call here and in voiding this has removed the possibility of some great RP that could have developed on /all/ sides.  To my reading the reason this was voided was because it was ruled as deathmatching and if it was a civilian vs civilian it would have been ruled as deathmatching without question.  Here's three reasons why I think it shouldn't be ruled as such.

 

1.  A civilian road rage situation ending in murder with a firearm is rare and because of that it's considered deathmatching on the server because a normal/reasonable person wouldn't do it.  LEO's shooting and killing an unarmed person absolutely does happen and nationwide is fairly common to hear about.  If we are going for realism isn't cops having bad shots realistic?  When's the last time we had one if ever IG?

 

2.  The checks and balances for violence for civilian players are way different than the LEO's.  /If/ someone gets noticed or caught by law enforcement their use of violence will be judged IC but mostly the check to civ violence is OOC forum reporting.  This isn't the same for LEO's.  Every trigger pull, taser deployment, and baton swing is throughly reviewed and dissected ICly by each agencies internal affairs.  

 

3. I think we are missing out on some great RP here.  Let's think what the course of events are if we let this continue IC and keep in mind the Deputy that shot was fully aware of (and I think planning on) the consequences.  First the Sheriffs as a whole would have to decide to rally behind or ostracize one of it's own which isn't something we've had to do before.  Secondly LSNN would probably investigate and release some bombshell reporting making the public aware.  The playerbase as a whole gets the chance at reacting.  Protests?  Riots?  Town halls?  Who knows!  Could you imagine an admin sanctioned protest turned riot in legion square with police in riot gear and civilians masked up demonstrating.  How fucking /awesome/ that would be? (Hello new fire system!) Lastly if he ends up getting charged it would be the court case of the year.  Something worthy of an IC IG case?  I dont know!  The RP that could stem from this could be awesome and I think by merely voiding it you remove the chance for all of us to partake in that.

 

But I get that being the one shot and losing the things on you and taking a PK can suck.  Can we fix that?  How about for LEO shoots that are deemed DM we refund the player and let them make a choice:

 

-Pick to stay alive no matter if they script-wise died or not and let them RP as injured and get to go through suing the police and whatnot.

-Let them PK with refund and we NPC the victim and allow RP to continue.

 

I'd like to hear your (polite and courteous) thoughts on this.  Can we do better with this situation and are people interested in the RP that would come from this?

 

 

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I agree with you but on the other hand, we shouldn't be put on some sort of pedestal just because we're LEO RPers. The rules still apply to us. In the Sheriff's Department, every shooting needs to be cleared by a member of our Command Staff (there's a report about every single shooting we've partook in as a faction) and we usually release it. 

 

Obviously I'd love for there to be shootings that are unlawful for roleplay purposes but there's a fine line between DM and actually having a justifiable reason to shoot someone who's unarmed (or not posing a threat to you).

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The shield of hiding behind it being IC is very overused when it comes to unjustified shootings by LEO's. It's something I personally have dealt with from all angles— as a cop, as an admin and as a criminal and I can tell you when you're on the other side it feels like DM. If you're killed there is no option to pursue it IC; it's not like real life where there's the potential for hundreds of people to be in the area of a shooting who are able to record the incident or bare witness such as the recent killing of George Floyd— our playerbase doesn't allow for that level of realism.

 

If the line is thin such as someone pulling out their cellphone while being told to put their hands up and they get shot then I'd say it should be dealt with IC but fragrant cases where shootings are obviously not justified should be dealt with the same as if it had happened with another non-leo player.

 

I've never liked the idea of LEO's being able to get away with 'DM' just because they have IA who can potentially investigate the shooting instead— rulebreaks are rulebreaks.

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I'm not advocating for LEO's to be immune to ooc punishments for DM.  If a Deputy mag dumps an M4 into a crowd then of course they should be ooc punished.  I'd even be okay with them facing ooc punishments as long as the scene isn't voided.  

 

Also though in my memory I dont recall any LEO being accused of DMing in the last 6 months or so since I started being active again.  Granted that might be because it was handled internally and didnt see the light of day but I think the notion that bad shoots happen often if ever isn't correct.  If you know of any of these happening this year please share them.  

 

To reiterate I'm not saying Leo's are above server rules.  For balantant rule breaks of course punish them but dont void it.  At the very least NPC the victim and refund the player who was dm'd.

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54 minutes ago, Declan said:

I agree with you but on the other hand, we shouldn't be put on some sort of pedestal just because we're LEO RPers. The rules still apply to us. In the Sheriff's Department, every shooting needs to be cleared by a member of our Command Staff (there's a report about every single shooting we've partook in as a faction) and we usually release it. 

 

Obviously I'd love for there to be shootings that are unlawful for roleplay purposes but there's a fine line between DM and actually having a justifiable reason to shoot someone who's unarmed (or not posing a threat to you).

I've been in a situation where I shot someone dead who was ATTACKING me on my CCW character, and I was put in cuffs and brought to county for Second Degree Murder. Keep in mind that the person I shot was armed with a hammer, but ICLY I roleplayed not being certain if there was a weapon or they were just swinging fists because it was pitch black out in game. Only when I told them OOCly that the attacker had a hammer did they let me go, which frankly is a bullshit situation.

 

I was told by the cops that if someone comes swinging at me with fists and I have my gun out, I am to "run away". What happens if this person can overpower me, or attempts to take away my gun? Well, it'll be my fault, and I'll still be charged with murder.

 

What these cops did should have been taken ICly and they should be charged with Second Degree Murder.

 

On another note, it does not bode well with me that Notbond just issued a warning not to DM again to the deputies. If you are going to take this situation as a break of the rules, LEOs should be held to a higher standard of roleplay than normal players, so if anything they should face a more severe punishment than anybody else who would have been banned for DMing.

 

It just seems to me the rule that states "you must roleplay at all times" has no meaning anymore, based on how many situations are outright voided by admins.

Edited by icarusfeather
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3 minutes ago, icarusfeather said:

Also it's ironic how just like real life, these officers will face NO PUNISHMENT

Yikes, your cup of ACAB is overflowing there bud. 

 

8 minutes ago, icarusfeather said:

I roleplayed not being certain if there was a weapon or they were just swinging fists because it was pitch black out in game.

You probably were about to be arrested for this or put on a investigative hold. You shot a dude you were unsure was armed ICly, realistically a lot of states have this thing called "Duty to Retreat" which means CCW holders and even those defending their property must retreat up until it is either life or death and you have nowhere left to run, unsure of if the server has it in the penal code as well as SHAFT. Many a CCW holders in the USA get shafted because they say the wrong thing.

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3 minutes ago, Anderson said:

Yikes, your cup of ACAB is overflowing there bud. 

 

You probably were about to be arrested for this or put on a investigative hold. You shot a dude you were unsure was armed ICly, realistically a lot of states have this thing called "Duty to Retreat" which means CCW holders and even those defending their property must retreat up until it is either life or death and you have nowhere left to run, unsure of if the server has it in the penal code as well as SHAFT. Many a CCW holders in the USA get shafted because they say the wrong thing.

Not ACAB, truth. ACAB does not apply to me, blue blood runs in my veins (have a plethora of police in my family), I have no hatred towards police officers who do their job morally and ethically. But, looking over my comment it does seem I went off the rails a bit, so I'll redact it.

 

In all honesty, it would have been brought to the court system where I would have been found not guilty after they reviewed the CCTV, as I had no option to retreat. The officer who picked up the hammer off of the attacker's dead body completely ignored it until I told him it was there in /b.

 

And you're right about your last sentence, this is why you should hold your tongue while under investigation by police. Let your lawyer take care of it.

Edited by icarusfeather
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To clarify that thing about shooting people as a civilian, we RP SA as being a state with "stand your ground" laws. The cops IC or OOCly weren't knowledgeable enough in that regard to explain it properly I suppose.

 

7 minutes ago, icarusfeather said:

In all honesty, it would have been brought to the court system where I would have been found not guilty after they reviewed the CCTV, as I had no option to retreat. The officer who picked up the hammer off of the attacker's dead body completely ignored it until I told him it was there in /b.

 

This is exactly why the bad shooting should have been taken IC. JSA and the court system is a very niche part of the server but it serves a wonderful purpose. In your case it would have saved you from losing your character or serving a ton of jail time. In the case of the Deputy blasting someone, he would have been tossed in jail forever and his character needing to be CKed or something similar.

 

I get that LEO RPers are often tossed on a pedestal, but I don't think it's a pedestal per se, I just think they're allowed to do a few things differently since there are massive IC processes to deal with their misconduct from an IC level. If a gang member shoots someone for a shady reason, it's not like there's a Chamberlain Hills Gangland Shooting Investigations Unit that shows up and makes sure he had the right amount of beef before the shooting for it to be valid. By comparison, every shooting is examined in the SD (I don't think PD has use of force reports yet). There are half a dozen people in SD Internal Affairs that read through these reports and look for things out of line that might land Deputies in hot water for their actions.

 

It's not really a matter of LEO RPers being given preference, it's a matter of LEO vs Illegal RP operating under completely different circumstances. Admins might be typically quicker to step in when Illegal RPers get out of line, because there is absolutely nothing policing that behavior outside of a vigilant faction leader (which can't always be counted on like an Internal Affairs unit can in PD/SD).

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As a faction leader, I'm personally concerned that this was completely reversed and management had to get involved.

 

A lot of roleplay could of been created from this and corruption can continue. While yes, it can continue, it cannot run like this. Corruption happens, mistakes happen, mistakes can get people killed. But thats the point of roleplay, no-one is perfect, no-one in SD, PD, FD is perfect and is above the law, but it seems that roleplay must be voided and possibly hours of time spent looking into things is completely gone out the window.

 

Our work funnily enough works on police corruption, and that went out the window with this new ruling, and a upcoming project has now been scrapped, due to this. I think the amount of roleplay created from this could of been huge, and would of been very interesting to look into. 

 

But in the end, its a fine balance between server rules, internal faction guidelines, and IC actions. No cop should have a shield from rule breaking, and in this incident, they seem to have a valid reasoning behind it, but in the end, its managements decision and I'll respect that. 

 

I'm disappointed but rules are rules, being a LEO doesn't make you the holy shield. But thank you for the shoutout, it means a lot. @Leemabean

Edited by LSNN
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