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The decision to not allow "Looking for work: ads.


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2 hours ago, Paddy said:

This is interesting and I do take your point on board, but by the same token I would argue that these types of classified ads would not be as far reaching as front-page news, radio or television — the mediums that typical community members associate with the premise of the ad system. To that end, I would still say that ads of this nature are not appropriate as it's far-reaching audience (literally everybody) is far too broad. The absence of a more appropriate medium IG is counteracted by this forum section where people do post looking for work. To disregard this and use the IG ad system is, at least by my interpretation, exploitation of the system.

Ads to sell personal cars or houses fall under the same category as looking for work ads. Those ads are allowed all day in game. I don’t particularly see a difference between ads selling a personal vehicle or house versus ads looking for work. It’s still a personal ad.
 

It would be equally expensive to list an ad to sell your car, if not more, on a main medium such as a newspaper, tv or radio. I would argue your reasoning for the premise of the ad system doesn’t make sense in that regard. I wouldn’t go on the radio or tv to sell my personal car or house, yet that’s one of the main ads we see in-game. With that logic, I would argue people regard it as more of a classifieds section/less formal form of advertising. 
 

Newspapers usually charge by the inch, so these ads describing car parts, modifications, model, year, price, contact information, etc. would be super expensive for someone just wanting to sell their car. There is no reason to allow that, but then say it’s too expensive for someone to list an ad looking for work, which would take up less space and ultimately be less expensive. Both of these ads would go under a classifieds section. There’s no difference and no justification to allow one but not the other. 

Edited by Scaramouche
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that is, we can receive business announcements that have opened at that time but cannot receive ads from people looking for work?  I've seen ads from people looking for work everywhere, but I've never seen an ad when a business opens or is open IRL, business ads that claim to be open don't make any sense, that's why I say it, it only makes sense to announce their opening, but not during the opening.

 

This ads system should be a website where you can post your ads for free/some money, makes more sense nowadays.

Edited by Jennie
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At the end of the day... Some of the most prized servers I played on never had this OOC control over ad's.. We had FCC violations which would be handed out as a fine... I can go on craigslist right now and say that I am looking for a gun. So why cant we do it IG? 

 

An IC FCC violation upholds to the RP standard that we see preached daily... Kicking someone does not...

 

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1 hour ago, Scaramouche said:

Ads to sell personal cars or houses fall under the same category as looking for work ads. Those ads are allowed all day in game. I don’t particularly see a difference between ads selling a personal vehicle or house versus ads looking for work. It’s still a personal ad.
 

It would be equally expensive to list an ad to sell your car, if not more, on a main medium such as a newspaper, tv or radio. I would argue your reasoning for the premise of the ad system doesn’t make sense in that regard. I wouldn’t go on the radio or tv to sell my personal car or house, yet that’s one of the main ads we see in-game. With that logic, I would argue people regard it as more of a classifieds section/less formal form of advertising. 
 

Newspapers usually charge by the inch, so these ads describing car parts, modifications, model, year, price, contact information, etc. would be super expensive for someone just wanting to sell their car. There is no reason to allow that, but then say it’s too expensive for someone to list an ad looking for work, which would take up less space and ultimately be less expensive. Both of these ads would go under a classifieds section. There’s no difference and no justification to allow one but not the other. 

Again, you make some good points, but I do feel obliged to point out that people making ads selling houses/vehicles do have the money, unlike the people seeking employment. The money lies within the asset they are selling, and from a character development perspective, it would strike me to be the case that a person with assets that they can offload and still hold an element of comfort, has a well established bank balance. The person who seeks employment strikes me as somebody who doesn't.

 

I do take what you're saying on board though. It's subjective and perhaps there is no right or wrong answer within the scope of this particular aspect of the debate. There are however other aspects, like where we draw the line about legality and at what point it is too grey to interject. At least with a rule of this nature it's black and white and everybody knows where they stand in terms of what they can and can't post.

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8 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Again, you make some good points, but I do feel obliged to point out that people making ads selling houses/vehicles do have the money, unlike the people seeking employment. 

 

The person who seeks employment strikes me as somebody who doesn't.

That's a really general assumption, though. You can't base a concrete rule (it's either yes or no) based on an assumption. I could be a person who doesn't really need the money, but still wants to look for work because of boredom. So you're going to restrict my ability to post a work ad based on the general assumption that people who are looking for employment don't have the money to be comfortable? Doesn't strike me as the right way to go.

Edited by Scaramouche
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Just now, Scaramouche said:

That's a really general assumption, though. You can't base a concrete rule (it's either yes or no) based on an assumption. I could be an older person who doesn't really need the money, but still wants to look for work because of boredom. So you're going to restrict my ability to post a work ad based on the general assumption that people who are looking for employment don't have the money to be comfortable? Doesn't strike me as the right way to go.

I do admit that it is a broad sweeping brush to tar everybody with, and would say that it's not a good rule to have if it were the only factor at play. I do think however that with the ambiguity about where you draw the line in terms of the legality of ads, or where you draw the line in terms of quality or broader realism with these ads (the ones describing appearance etc are the most glaring), then it becomes murky. Having this rule, while it doesn't necessarily suit everyone, erases that grey area.

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33 minutes ago, Paddy said:

I do admit that it is a broad sweeping brush to tar everybody with, and would say that it's not a good rule to have if it were the only factor at play. I do think however that with the ambiguity about where you draw the line in terms of the legality of ads, or where you draw the line in terms of quality or broader realism with these ads (the ones describing appearance etc are the most glaring), then it becomes murky. Having this rule, while it doesn't necessarily suit everyone, erases that grey area.

 

Then use OOC rules, if they must, (just as they have to eliminate the work ads completely) to explain what can and can't be used in an ad of that manner. They dedicated a whole section in the rules to eliminate grey areas in what can and can't be posted with regards to other kinds of ads, including specific instruction. Why not do the same thing with the quality of ads for that? If someone posts a looking for work ad that would otherwise be illegal or not up to par for the server standards, then kick them. Don't eliminate it entirely.

 

Also, to your previous point, implying people who own houses and cars have a means to be comfortable to afford the ads. Lots of people end up selling their cars/houses because they can't afford living that way and even lose their house or car by defaulting on their payment, suggesting they don't have the money to be comfortable. It happens every day. I own a house in real life, but I'm not going to spend $200-300 on a newspaper classified to sell it. I'm not living dollar to dollar, but that doesn't mean I'd be comfortable dropping hundreds of dollars on a newspaper, tv or radio ad to sell my house. That's just ridiculous.

 

It's too broad of a stroke.

Edited by Scaramouche
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54 minutes ago, Scaramouche said:

Then use OOC rules, if they must, (just as they have to eliminate the work ads completely) to explain what can and can't be used in an ad of that manner.

This is what I was suggesting be avoided, as you end up legislating to the n'th degree. I presume this is why the rule was brought in originally. If you try and introduce leeway it becomes too difficult to enforce because everybody will contest every ruling by an admin. With the current system such contesting doesn't happen because it's black and white.

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28 minutes ago, Paddy said:

This is what I was suggesting be avoided, as you end up legislating to the n'th degree. I presume this is why the rule was brought in originally. If you try and introduce leeway it becomes too difficult to enforce because everybody will contest every ruling by an admin. With the current system such contesting doesn't happen because it's black and white.

Regular advertisements (/ad) is for general advertisements that are not associated with businesses or companies.

 

The following are considered acceptable examples of using /ad:

  • buying and selling of properties, businesses, vehicles or items of value;
  • advertisement of events that are not associated with a business or company;
  • advertisement of legal services.

This is not black and white. What constitutes an item of value? Who determines what's valuable and what's not? One admin's discretion may not be the same as another, just as you and I have differing opinions of this subject (no hard feelings by the way, just a good discussion). My point is that you can't make this section about advertising black and white. The new rules were meant to apply common sense and allow for admin discretion for in-game actions. Completely taking away the right to make one personal ad (Looking for work) in favor of being able to make other personal ads (houses, cars, items of value) is not black and white. It's the exact opposite. Looking for work would be considered a general advertisement in my book. 

  • advertisement of legal services

This would technically be related to a business, no? A lawyer works for a law firm or owns their own law firm/works for themselves, which would still be a business IRL, even as a sole prop/DBA. They are advertising a service, which should fall under a company ad correct?

 

Moral of the story - none of this is black and white. I just contested it ? It's up to admin discretion, which is fine, but the logic of these general ads are flawed.

Edited by Scaramouche
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