Criminal Role Play

[borhoi]

I'm going to start this off by quoting my response to a suggestion thread asking for more avenues by which criminal role players can scriptly make money.

 

Quote

I've never understood suggestions to enable more criminal RP under the pretense that there aren't enough opportunities. There are a myriad of cars parked at any given time and most people I know (myself included) only vpark when they're logging off for the night. This is perfectly reasonable considering none of us are on 16 hours a day (I'd hope) and it isn't exactly fair to the player that their car is simply sitting around when they're going to be logged off for a day or two. Considering the fact that leaving your car out even while role playing inside for an hour or two already leads to a disproportionate amount of times a player deals with their car being stolen, I don't think many changes need to be made here. It's 2019. The fact that "lock picks" let you into cars and the fact that cars are able to be hotwired is already unrealistic enough. Modern cars, for the most part, have a chip in the key that signals to readers in the ignition whether or not the actual key is being used. Lack of signal means the ECU shuts down various parts of the system like power to the spark plugs, power to the crank sensor, power to the fuel pump. To get into a car in 2019 you 90% of the time need nothing short of an actual break in. A "lock pick" is certainly not going to do the job. And far as bypassing security features that come standard in most modern cars? You're not doing that in a two to three minute time frame. None of this brings into account the empty streets and ease of doing these things on the server that comes with them.

 

The pure and simple fact of the matter is that with all these things considered, the odds are already stacked against people who leave their cars out. The process to steal a car is already unrealistic and overly simple. Security features that are able to be installed via garages are below the standard of what comes stock on modern vehicles. Car theft simply doesn't work in real life as expediently or simply as the script makes it.

 

As far as business robberies go Keane explained it. The system is already in place and as long as criminal role players aren't too eager to the point that they sit outside with masks and guns under the expectation that RP is "paused", and as long as the role play makes sense and is conducted realistically, this is entirely doable.

 

There are already plenty of opportunities for illegal role players. Most of these opportunities are already stacked in their favor. Robbing a business that's empty because the owner is logged is simple enough, and the alarms offered at hardware stores are - once again - below the standard of what's offered in real life. I've worked in private security for the past eleven years of my life and the majority of that time has been in a supervisory capacity. I purchase and oversee the installation of alarm systems. In the event of a break-in, especially at a high end venue like some of the nightclubs and businesses on the server, the police are notified by the alarm company all but instantly.

 

I've never agreed with the notion that the script should make these things less realistic in the interest of allowing illegal role players to do illegal role play. It's silly and in my opinion promotes illegal role play when there's already a staggeringly disproportionate amount of criminals versus civilians compared to real life. However, it's a fact of life on the server. I am vehemently against anything that dumbs these processes down even further and makes it even more unrealistically easy for criminal role players to do cookie cutter unrealistic crimes.

 

It's 2019 and that's what we're role playing. If anything should be implemented via script it's things like credit card skimmers and identity theft (I do not have the answers for how this would work script-wise, but these are more in line with crime in the 21st century) in conjunction with a more robust drug system.

 

The post pretty much encapsulates what I want to have a discussion about here. I know my viewpoint won't be popular because the - in my experience - near majority of players in this community engage in criminal role play. But here are the key talking points:

 

- There is a disproportionate and unrealistic percentage of criminal role players compared to civilians. Civilians not counting cops as well. I'm talking about actual law abiding citizens participating in strictly legal role play. Regular people.

 

- The scripted things criminals can do already are unrealistic and wildly simpler than the real life planning and execution that would go into such acts. This is especially true considering we're using lock picks to break into cars in 2019 and hotwiring cars in 2019. The fact that the script allows this at all is already extremely generous to illegal role players as cars - modern cars - are not able to be stolen like cars of old.

 

- The idea that illegal role players need these already flagrantly unrealistic scripts that are already heavily stacked in their favor enhanced more in their favor for some reason is absurd.

 

- There should be a focus on researching modern crime and implementing (where needed) script mechanisms to role play these things instead of idly staying with the current lockpick car - > hotwire car - > chop car ritual. Modern crimes that could be implemented script wise are above all: a more robust and rehauled drug system. The drug trade is rampant in 2019. We should be focusing on making the script enhance drug RP. People need to be willing to RP addicts, not just pushers.

 

Credit card skimming and identity theft could also be implemented. Digital crime is huge. I don't have the answers there. But I'm sure our devs and staff could make something great.

 

Thoughts, opinion, hatemail, all appreciated.

We need to talk about crim RP as a community.

 

[Barriss]

A lot of criminal RP at times is almost inherently not RP.

Faction threads often show people selling drugs or murder. I've yet to see a criminal gang attempt to hook their teeth into something interesting, why aren't they robbing truck drivers to steal their cargo? Where's the extortion that isn't hamfistedly done by bikers who think people in the city are actually going to bend to their will? Why aren't there more white-collar criminals? 

Worse thing I've heard is gangs using macro'd or pre-written /me's in order to force fearRP on people. Then get very uppity when they find that people won't instantly melt when they're put under pressure. Shockingly this seems to be the norm for many of the gangs as they don't seem to want to be anything BUT badly portrayed caricatures of southern LA in the 90's. Could guarantee there are plenty of Americans here who've lived close to or in gang territory that could give you better examples of criminal RP.

[Dynamite!]

19 minutes ago, Barriss said:

A lot of criminal RP at times is almost inherently not RP.

Faction threads often show people selling drugs or murder. I've yet to see a criminal gang attempt to hook their teeth into something interesting, why aren't they robbing truck drivers to steal their cargo? Where's the extortion that isn't hamfistedly done by bikers who think people in the city are actually going to bend to their will? Why aren't there more white-collar criminals? 

Worse thing I've heard is gangs using macro'd or pre-written /me's in order to force fearRP on people. Then get very uppity when they find that people won't instantly melt when they're put under pressure. Shockingly this seems to be the norm for many of the gangs as they don't seem to want to be anything BUT badly portrayed caricatures of southern LA in the 90's. Could guarantee there are plenty of Americans here who've lived close to or in gang territory that could give you better examples of criminal RP.

Have you actually taken time to roleplay as a criminal or do anything related to crime rp? Most of the time it’s just robbery or murder when it’s deserved, because the tiniest things happen and people file player reports, and nobody wants that. You’ve been looking at the wrong criminal factions if you think that’s just it. Also, you fail to realize that these are street gangs, street gangs aren’t going to pull bank heists or stop people in the road driving cargo trucks and robbing them. Look at Seaside ABZ, they roleplay great. Half their characters are people who aren't even in the gang yet and just normal kids who commit petty crimes. 

[Trupiano]

 Oh good this thread again.

 

first and foremost there are hundreds of ways to make money illegally, your post is incredibly misleading. What there is a minimum amount of is scripted ways to make money. Scripts that allow you to say “if I do this many of X an hour for Y amount of hours I’ll make Z amount of money”. There can be some great RP in these scripts but there is also large room for abuse. Every script job or script tool added should always be approached with caution and we’ve seen groups of players abuse these systems in the past. 
 

I’d love to see more internet and identity based crimes but after recent discussion points were raised that law enforcement does not have the tools to counter those crimes in game like their real life counter parts. While at first thought internet crimes sound great, the MASSIVE undertaking to develop the tools to 1. Do so and 2. The tools for law enforcement to counter these crimes. It just isn’t worth it in the long run when those resources could be focused elsewhere.

 

I think a lot of the issues facing criminal RP can be fixed by focusing our efforts on expanding and developing the IG government, and filling the positions within it. I think it would do everyone justice to take a look at the Government website that can be found on the main forum page. I have my hands full running my faction but I’ve noticed some pretty cool jobs and positions they are trying to fill. Positions that if filled would open a ton of potential avenues for corruption and white collar crime. 
 

finally I think people also need to focus on developing their characters outward instead of upwards. If your character is stealing cars for a car ring as his main gig, he probably isn’t actively selling drugs as well. Sure a character might have some side hustles but I see far to many characters who are “jack of trades” taking part in every single crime from murder for hire to stealing cars. I’m not going to sit here and preach “realism” on this issue, it’s just bad character development. 

 

There is an incredible amount of social and “none crime” illegal RP that people neglect or just don’t think about. A gang leader might chill on the corner with a few of his guys, receiving reports from his lieutenants, keeping his eyes on people, giving orders. A drug dealer might take some of his illegal cash to an illegal card game. House parties, basketball games, dice games, street racing. Graffiti, underground rap shows or events. That’s all the stuff that happens between the crimes and where honestly some of the best events can come from. People focus on turning their character into a drug kingpin or criminal mastermind but in reality? Many criminals are committing crimes week to week, month to month living a pretty cash heavy and to be honest trashy lifestyle. They have plenty of cash but never enough to make any serious purchases. Definitely not a fancy place or more then a little expensive car.

 

As for drugs? I think that there needs to be an increase on how long they are effective this includes the visual effects. I won’t say much but I will say that any of the big 15ish street and party drugs you can think of are available in game, what their effect is I have no idea but if you can provide a realistic example of how you’d supply it you can probably try applying in the next round of supplier applications. However I will warn that the most common drugs such as coke, Weed, H and meth are already being supplied, other drugs are going to take a lot of research to be granted supplier.

 

But ultimately when it comes to drugs I think a lot of the failure falls on us the players. While I understand one might be hesitant to partake in the use of narcotics in real life, your in a virtual world there is no risk to your IRL health if you rail coke all day on the server and hey, you might even like that nice increase in HP. At least allow your character the experience of experimenting with drugs. 
 

However, everything I said aside, we really should hold off discussion until we see the new set of rules, @Keane and the other members of staff have been working behind the scenes on. We could be complaining about  or discussion things that in a month might be drastically difference.
 

 

 

[eTaylor]

2 hours ago, borhoi said:

- There is a disproportionate and unrealistic percentage of criminal role players compared to civilians. Civilians not counting cops as well. I'm talking about actual law abiding citizens participating in strictly legal role play. Regular people.

 

I don't feel there's a disproportionate amount of criminals, but then again that's just anecdotal. I don't roleplay in the city, and as such the limited encounters I have with people in the city are typically with those who appear to be simple civilians out on their day. I certainly don't have the impression there are only criminals, but I can't tell whether the characters I encounter stick to strictly legal RP.

3 hours ago, borhoi said:

- The scripted things criminals can do already are unrealistic and wildly simpler than the real life planning and execution that would go into such acts. This is especially true considering we're using lock picks to break into cars in 2019 and hotwiring cars in 2019. The fact that the script allows this at all is already extremely generous to illegal role players as cars - modern cars - are not able to be stolen like cars of old.

 

The whole carjacking script could do with a rework in my opinion, though I don't have any real suggestions for such a rework myself. I do find it odd that you use a lock-pick to break into a car. Perhaps there is a way to create a more in-depth system that accounts for the different vehicles. 

3 hours ago, borhoi said:

- The idea that illegal role players need these already flagrantly unrealistic scripts that are already heavily stacked in their favor enhanced more in their favor for some reason is absurd.

 

I'd argue that this is a loud minority, and it's pretty obvious these people have not exhausted their options nor do they genuinely put effort into things. People who focus on script tend to be the same people neglecting their own development as a character and a roleplayer. I doubt development will ever cater to these people, considering the abundance of scripting already available. People really show their own ability when they complain about these things. 

 

3 hours ago, borhoi said:

- There should be a focus on researching modern crime and implementing (where needed) script mechanisms to role play these things instead of idly staying with the current lockpick car - > hotwire car - > chop car ritual. Modern crimes that could be implemented script wise are above all: a more robust and rehauled drug system. The drug trade is rampant in 2019. We should be focusing on making the script enhance drug RP. People need to be willing to RP addicts, not just pushers.

 

This too is very different depending on what scene you roleplay with I imagine. I know and roleplay with plenty of people who roleplay a drug/alcohol dependency, myself included. Though that's anecdotal, I do wonder what's it like in the street gang scene. Wasn't development already working on something? 

1 hour ago, Barriss said:

Faction threads often show people selling drugs or murder. I've yet to see a criminal gang attempt to hook their teeth into something interesting, why aren't they robbing truck drivers to steal their cargo? Where's the extortion that isn't hamfistedly done by bikers who think people in the city are actually going to bend to their will? Why aren't there more white-collar criminals? 

I also think you've been looking at the wrong faction threads, I also believe it depends on the crime scene you're roleplaying with. If you look at unimaginative gangbangers based on some 90's movie or stereotypical portrayals of bikers because someone watcheds Sons of Anarchy, yeah you'll get that. Roleplay is diverse however, and there's a lot of difference in quality. While there is an argument for quality control, they usually tend to sort themselves out. Bad factions don't survive for long, and the good factions you really have to experience yourself. You can't really judge things based on curated highlights alone. 

 

1 hour ago, Henning said:

 

finally I think people also need to focus on developing their characters outward instead of upwards. If your character is stealing cars for a car ring as his main gig, he probably isn’t actively selling drugs as well. Sure a character might have some side hustles but I see far to many characters who are “jack of trades” taking part in every single crime from murder for hire to stealing cars. I’m not going to sit here and preach “realism” on this issue, it’s just bad character development. 

  

There is an incredible amount of social and “none crime” illegal RP that people neglect or just don’t think about. A gang leader might chill on the corner with a few of his guys, receiving reports from his lieutenants, keeping his eyes on people, giving orders. A drug dealer might take some of his illegal cash to an illegal card game. House parties, basketball games, dice games, street racing. Graffiti, underground rap shows or events. That’s all the stuff that happens between the crimes and where honestly some of the best events can come from. People focus on turning their character into a drug kingpin or criminal mastermind but in reality? Many criminals are committing crimes week to week, month to month living a pretty cash heavy and to be honest trashy lifestyle. They have plenty of cash but never enough to make any serious purchases. Definitely not a fancy place or more then a little expensive car.

Social roleplay aside I think you definitely hit a point on the fact that people need to focus on character development. If you want to do civilian roleplay, go do civilian roleplay. If you want to do criminal roleplay, go do criminal roleplay. If you want to mix the two, go ahead. But make a conviction to roleplay what you roleplay, and develop an actual character around that roleplay. Don't just have a premise for existence and use that as an excuse. A few examples, right-wing extremist factions have fantastic roleplayers, but they'll get people who create a character with a Deutschamerikaner name and attack other people because "I am nazi". Gangbangers have great factions with some amazing roleplay, yet they too get unoriginal named characters who log on to shoot someone becuase "I am crip cuhh". Even out in the county we'll get those random characters that roleplay like a trashbag on two legs to a point where it's genuinely frustrating because 'dey ruuleplaaah' tuulk'in laiike'h dususss'' and are genuinely convinced they've got some fantastic roleplay to show the world.

 

It's plain stupid, but thankfully it's also the exception rather than the standard. A lot of factions, groups and crews benefit from self-moderation. By mandating a higher expectation from their participants you create an environment where people are forced to think about their characters and the things they do with them. It's why you see such a huge difference between factions. Because while one might put the emphasis on development, the other won't and that really shows. I think criminal roleplay is just fine, there will always be complete tools running around ruining things but at least I feel like it's not a major issue. Just as long as people don't neglect the standard of having a developed character, that continues to be developed. 

[Nervous]

Just dropping some dev notes here - the car jacking script is a placeholder since our move from GTMP. We never had the opportunity to redo it, but we are currently working on it and some changes will soon be there, where you'll be able to break the car's windows, hotwire it in a different way etc. And working alarms of course.

 

As for the drugs, I kept explaining that a rework to add more drug creation script was coming, with the ability to cut it etc. if you're talking about a rework of drugs effects, i'm still waiting on good suggestions about it because I have nothing.

 

We have more scripts coming for illegal roleplayers with the corpse system, and the weapon components too.

 

[CUT THROAT BABY]

You can't force people into RPing civilians, the imbalance you speak of will never be fixed because 90% of the server population are here to have fun outside of their comparatively mundane life. No one wants to work a normal job IRL and then come home to work in a virtual normal job, you want to have fun.

 

As for whoever was saying 'why does nobody rob truckers' etc, this is supposed to be LS not Somalia

[borhoi]

7 hours ago, Henning said:

 Oh good this thread again.

 

first and foremost there are hundreds of ways to make money illegally, your post is incredibly misleading. What there is a minimum amount of is scripted ways to make money. Scripts that allow you to say “if I do this many of X an hour for Y amount of hours I’ll make Z amount of money”. There can be some great RP in these scripts but there is also large room for abuse. Every script job or script tool added should always be approached with caution and we’ve seen groups of players abuse these systems in the past. 
 

I’d love to see more internet and identity based crimes but after recent discussion points were raised that law enforcement does not have the tools to counter those crimes in game like their real life counter parts. While at first thought internet crimes sound great, the MASSIVE undertaking to develop the tools to 1. Do so and 2. The tools for law enforcement to counter these crimes. It just isn’t worth it in the long run when those resources could be focused elsewhere.

 

I think a lot of the issues facing criminal RP can be fixed by focusing our efforts on expanding and developing the IG government, and filling the positions within it. I think it would do everyone justice to take a look at the Government website that can be found on the main forum page. I have my hands full running my faction but I’ve noticed some pretty cool jobs and positions they are trying to fill. Positions that if filled would open a ton of potential avenues for corruption and white collar crime. 
 

finally I think people also need to focus on developing their characters outward instead of upwards. If your character is stealing cars for a car ring as his main gig, he probably isn’t actively selling drugs as well. Sure a character might have some side hustles but I see far to many characters who are “jack of trades” taking part in every single crime from murder for hire to stealing cars. I’m not going to sit here and preach “realism” on this issue, it’s just bad character development. 

 

There is an incredible amount of social and “none crime” illegal RP that people neglect or just don’t think about. A gang leader might chill on the corner with a few of his guys, receiving reports from his lieutenants, keeping his eyes on people, giving orders. A drug dealer might take some of his illegal cash to an illegal card game. House parties, basketball games, dice games, street racing. Graffiti, underground rap shows or events. That’s all the stuff that happens between the crimes and where honestly some of the best events can come from. People focus on turning their character into a drug kingpin or criminal mastermind but in reality? Many criminals are committing crimes week to week, month to month living a pretty cash heavy and to be honest trashy lifestyle. They have plenty of cash but never enough to make any serious purchases. Definitely not a fancy place or more then a little expensive car.

 

As for drugs? I think that there needs to be an increase on how long they are effective this includes the visual effects. I won’t say much but I will say that any of the big 15ish street and party drugs you can think of are available in game, what their effect is I have no idea but if you can provide a realistic example of how you’d supply it you can probably try applying in the next round of supplier applications. However I will warn that the most common drugs such as coke, Weed, H and meth are already being supplied, other drugs are going to take a lot of research to be granted supplier.

 

But ultimately when it comes to drugs I think a lot of the failure falls on us the players. While I understand one might be hesitant to partake in the use of narcotics in real life, your in a virtual world there is no risk to your IRL health if you rail coke all day on the server and hey, you might even like that nice increase in HP. At least allow your character the experience of experimenting with drugs. 
 

However, everything I said aside, we really should hold off discussion until we see the new set of rules, @Keane and the other members of staff have been working behind the scenes on. We could be complaining about  or discussion things that in a month might be drastically difference.
 

 

 

We don't disagree on anything you said here. My gripe is with the scripts currently in place and I've pointed out that other things should be more heavily researched and added in the future. I'm not advocating for an end to criminal RP. If there's an issue with non-criminal role players failing to see things from the perspective of criminal role players I'd contest that the inverse is absolutely positively true as well. It's nigh but impossible to run a business without almost constant harassment and threats from criminal groups. As stated in my original post: I work in the security industry. Your run of the mill bar or club does not face Goodfellas style extortion attempts in 2019. Nor do they risk being murdered for throwing out Nazis or troublemakers. I worked a high end French restaurant in Vinewood of all places and was killed for throwing out a group of young hispanic gang members. This has happened at a variety of spots. Being assaulted and even PK'd over silly things that shouldn't have happened in the first place. This is the criminal RP the majority of civilians see. If you're portraying your faction correctly and not doing these types of things because you're bored, more power to you. This post is obviously not directed at you.

I'm pointing out the things we have in place that are already unrealistic. I'm pointing out the fact that there is a disproportionate amount of criminals compared to civilians. That leads, by its very nature, to near constant annoyance and harassment from criminals that simply would not happen in real life. There's a line to be drawn between criminals having their fun and civilians being able to run their businesses and enjoy their RP in a realistic way. There's nothing misleading about my original post whatsoever. If you haven't encountered the things I've pointed out then I don't know what to tell you because it's wildly common.

 

I agree with most of your points. Nothing you said goes against anything I pointed out in the original post. As I said, if you're role playing your character and your faction realistically, that's fantastic. A large portion of illegal role players are most certainly not.

[Joseph_Campo]

9 hours ago, Nervous said:

Just dropping some dev notes here - the car jacking script is a placeholder since our move from GTMP. We never had the opportunity to redo it, but we are currently working on it and some changes will soon be there, where you'll be able to break the car's windows, hotwire it in a different way etc. And working alarms of course.

 

As for the drugs, I kept explaining that a rework to add more drug creation script was coming, with the ability to cut it etc. if you're talking about a rework of drugs effects, i'm still waiting on good suggestions about it because I have nothing.

 

We have more scripts coming for illegal roleplayers with the corpse system, and the weapon components too.

 

Okay, finally. This is good news. I dont think lockpicks should be removed as a whole. There are people here making statements that they are just completley unrealistic to use, but I don't agree to that to the fullest. There are still lockpicks used to this day that are able to be used. When youre talking about cheaper vehicles etc but with the more expensive vehicles I could definitely agree that it is a little unrealistic BUT there is no other option for illegal roleplayers to take and that is why its done the way it is. Kudos to the staff for adding more scripts. Definitely excited to see what's to come.

 

 

 

[nwah_]

1 hour ago, Midnight Tick said:

Most of the factions have a vibe of telenovela, and Second Life. Like, damn, I want to join something fun and engaging, not a faction that posts screenshots of relationship problems, pregnancy tests or sauce fests at someone's house. The characters really look like coming out of Second Life, looking all prettied up or like a model. I'm not talking about women characters, but dudes from the ghetto. It's fine if your character is metrosexual, but a whole gang full of them is odd. There's not much going on outside of that, and the good ol' killing and the emo phase right after. There's not much variety on the every day scenario, it's just... telenovela content.

Factions just don't look attractive to my eye, but that might be just me.

I don't know what you're expecting out of criminal roleplay or factions, they're not animals committing crime after crime with no other things going on in their lives. They're portraying real criminals with real world problems. It's not all just gang fighting and crime, there's external factors that attribute to the characters, like a pregnancy scare, or a party over at a friend's house. I'd be more concerned if those things weren't part of people's roleplay, no one goes through life without adversities from family, or having a fun time with friends. It'd just make each character into a stone called DM machine or something.