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Redefine PK's and CK's Officially


Brett

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I think this is just one of the paradoxes in the roleplay-game vs real life can of worms. 

 

If you're going to do CKs, if you're caught your character needs to serve an actual jail term of years, not weeks or months. Otherwise people who've murdered and have been convicted go about in a reality freely where they should be incarcerated, and anyone connected to that said case is also living in the falsehood. Obviously, this can't be imposed.

 

Turning all playerkills into attempted murders wouldn't necessarily solve the issue, players wouldn't be incarcerated for years and the victim who might say they were almost murdered last week, could see their assailant in the street and have to pretend they're still incarcerated. 

 

It's just "one of those things" and I don't think there will ever be a way around it without forcing CKs on everyone whom dies and imposing relatively realistic sentences for severe crimes. 

Edited by Duke
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7 minutes ago, MikeTheMike said:

2.0 Powergaming


 

It is not allowed to perform actions which would not be possible in real life either, this is not limited to roleplay through /me. It is not allowed to force actions upon another player.

 

1), If my character intended to kill someone, they'd likely ensure they were dead. Furthermore, if I seen someone I had just "PKed" for a legitimate reason on the street, I'd kill them again. This isn't fair to me, nor the player. Should I forget his face too?.. Not to mention it's blatant powergame. What if this person is killed in a back-alley, or their body was hidden/disposed of? How is it realistic for the paramedics to head that way? This doesn't cover all possible death scenarios and would create alternate realities just like the already standing system - meaning - admin intervention would be necessary in 9/10 PKs to look-over and dictate the circumstances.

 

2). So, you're saying that your system is just magically forgetting the name/face of the shooter whilst remembering all other details? This is a bit silly, but.. I'll bite. Lets say it did work. What if their friends were around? "Yo, Jimmy! You okay?? Shit, how'd you get to the hospital? David shot you eight times!" - Now Jimmy's going to go over and kill David as he's learned his shooters identity and/or talk to the police.. meaning.. a CK would be the ONLY way to suppress information or to silence someone who seen you committing a crime.. and as we've already covered.. this isn't fair to anyone.

 

3) Yeah, but, what if the person who shot him was a long-time friend of his? Do they just interact normally as-if nothing happened - considering he doesn't remember who shot him? Doesn't that directly go against the entire thing you've laid out here?

 

I'm sorry, but.... admin intervention doesn't automatically invalidate roleplay - people make mistakes and administration we'll continue to need administrators aslong as the server continues. Your ideas limit roleplay and cause more inconsistencies and troubles for the administration than what we currently have.

"It is not allowed to perform actions which would not be possible in real life either, this is not limited to roleplay through /me." 

 

So-...are you powergaming a PK by engaging in conversation with someone you PK'd or in your words, "murdered." I would say so. Because if you are legitimately going to hold the line that a PK is a legitimate murder of someone, and then you meet the someone later in an interaction, logic dictates you cannot have a conversation with a dead person as this would be powergaming. This is why I believe it's important to redefine the PK to a near death more so then a death, because this is the kind of oddity that is not as ignorable as you might believe. Now to your points:

 

1.) 95% Majority of people don't ensure they're dead. I've never in my years of rolepalying every witnessed someone after shooting them in a PK situation, go and check a pulse. Breathing rate, or any legitimate way to determine someone is dead after shooting them. A majority simply run away after doing it, to avoid being caught. Which is the appropriate and logical response if you just committed a heinous crime in public. And to this, "Furthermore, if I seen someone I had just "PKed" for a legitimate reason on the street, I'd kill them again.' Then you're a deathmatcher, who simply wants to kill people and not roleplay. If you seriously had THAT big of a problem with someone to the point they NEED to be killed, you would be going for a CK not a PK. The fact that you admitted that would be your response, tells me that you have a rather deathmatch style attitude towards roleplay, and that's a problem in itself. 

 

2.) You can get shot multiple times with a lot of weapons, and not be PK'd at all. If I get shot 6 times with a pistol and don't die (PK/CK), that doesn't negate that I was shot times. Anymore then if I get into a traffic accident IG, just because I didn't get PK'd doesn't mean I don't have serious damage and possible traumatic injury. So this whole "David shot you eight times," is rather silly to bring up. Because there's a million other cases of people who get shot, or run over, or some other stupid thing where they don't get PK'd but would be usually dead IRL or whatever and we just RP that as we may and nobody has a problem with it. If you're going to hold the standard of that, don't just hold it to PK's. Hold it to anything that causes serious injury. (AKA: If you get run over by a car, but don't get PK'd. Yet would have massive internal bleeding, or what not to the point you should be dead.) You can't advocate double standards here. And two, going back to this deathmatch style mentality, "Now Jimmy's going to go over and kill David as he's learned his shooters identity and/or talk to the police" Okay. Maybe he talks to the police, or maybe he attempts to file for a CK on you for attempting to murder him. Either way, it would be justified. Now if you're both just endlessly trying to go for PK's, you're both just being shit tier roleplayers. At some point you need to take consequences for your actions, and if you're going to kill someone or attempt to kill them over dumb shit (Which as even someone else mentioned in this thread, happens quite a bit), you should prepare to get some stuff thrown back your way. Wanna step into the kitchen, then prepare to take the heat. Otherwise, don't set yourself up for retaliation without a reason.

 

 

3.) You made this up. In this situation where his long-time "friend," shot him. And he finds out about it, they can RP that as they want. This is a player driven choice, that this rule wouldn't hinder or make. If you're legitimately trying to murder your friend, even under the current system, why the hell would you be interacting with him later like. "Yo', what's up homie." When you just earlier were blasting his ass. That is-...so poor, so stupid, and so monstrously dumb on the part of someone who does that. I honestly don't understand why this was even brought up. If the friend is trying to kill his friend, even right now. Then clearly he doesn't want to engage in friendly interactions. Under this system, that wouldn't change. Although it would allow for the possibility of the friend to learn what truly happened if he icly finds out the details.

 

And to your point of, "I'm sorry, but.... admin intervention doesn't automatically invalidate roleplay - people make mistakes and administration we'll continue to need administrators aslong as the server continues. " I never said it did, I never claimed it did, your putting words in my mouth. I said and I quote, "No true RP that's well done, and makes sense, requires a /report. IF you need a /report to handle an RP, something has gone wrong. Unless of course it's something only an admin can do like spawn items, or open a door, or something. " Admins are called in mostly to deal with dispute resolution between players, violations of rules, or handling of affairs legitimately only an admin can handle that needs to be done for a player IE the opening of door comment, etc.  Again, you're making a lot of claims about things, but not actually basing any of it in any evidence. And you don't seem to actually understand what we're trying to advocate for here, and seem to honestly be lost on the topic. This isn't hard to understand, and i'm not the first person to tell you how you were wrong on some of your details when you replied. I'm not saying this to be a dick or anything to you, but I'm saying this because a lot of what you're bring up is claims with zero support, contradictory facts that make no sense in your own sentences, misinterpretations of things I did not say or advocate, and just dismissals of information on the grounds of "Well it just will complicate things," without actually giving us examples of how it will complicate that hasn't been easily explained away. I'll quote Mr. @Henning from earlier (Thanks for this dawg);

 

Quote

My suggestion?

 

PK = Spur of the moment attacks or attacks where you can not confirm the death of the victim.

CK = Attacks that have been planned out and carried out properly where the death of the victim can be confirmed. Or killings that are approved by staff using the normal CK application.

 

Here's some example:

 

PK: Rolling 60's insulted JTM, JTM decides to execute a drive by on Chamberlain hills, Although they kill multiple characters, They can't confirm that they are dead.

 

CK: The Conti Crew discovers one of their associates are going to flip. They find the associate and kidnap him, Executing him and disposing of the body and evidence properly. Confirming that he is dead.

 

Not the perfect rules but I think it leaves room for people to figure a bit of it out themselves. 

 

Which is exactly in line with the suggestion, for the exact same reasons. 

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1 hour ago, Brett said:

"It is not allowed to perform actions which would not be possible in real life either, this is not limited to roleplay through /me." 

 

So-...are you powergaming a PK by engaging in conversation with someone you PK'd or in your words, "murdered." I would say so. Because if you are legitimately going to hold the line that a PK is a legitimate murder of someone, and then you meet the someone later in an interaction, logic dictates you cannot have a conversation with a dead person as this would be powergaming. This is why I believe it's important to redefine the PK to a near death more so then a death, because this is the kind of oddity that is not as ignorable as you might believe. Now to your points:

 

1.) 95% Majority of people don't ensure they're dead. I've never in my years of rolepalying every witnessed someone after shooting them in a PK situation, go and check a pulse. Breathing rate, or any legitimate way to determine someone is dead after shooting them. A majority simply run away after doing it, to avoid being caught. Which is the appropriate and logical response if you just committed a heinous crime in public. And to this, "Furthermore, if I seen someone I had just "PKed" for a legitimate reason on the street, I'd kill them again.' Then you're a deathmatcher, who simply wants to kill people and not roleplay. If you seriously had THAT big of a problem with someone to the point they NEED to be killed, you would be going for a CK not a PK. The fact that you admitted that would be your response, tells me that you have a rather deathmatch style attitude towards roleplay, and that's a problem in itself. 

 

2.) You can get shot multiple times with a lot of weapons, and not be PK'd at all. If I get shot 6 times with a pistol and don't die (PK/CK), that doesn't negate that I was shot times. Anymore then if I get into a traffic accident IG, just because I didn't get PK'd doesn't mean I don't have serious damage and possible traumatic injury. So this whole "David shot you eight times," is rather silly to bring up. Because there's a million other cases of people who get shot, or run over, or some other stupid thing where they don't get PK'd but would be usually dead IRL or whatever and we just RP that as we may and nobody has a problem with it. If you're going to hold the standard of that, don't just hold it to PK's. Hold it to anything that causes serious injury. (AKA: If you get run over by a car, but don't get PK'd. Yet would have massive internal bleeding, or what not to the point you should be dead.) You can't advocate double standards here. And two, going back to this deathmatch style mentality, "Now Jimmy's going to go over and kill David as he's learned his shooters identity and/or talk to the police" Okay. Maybe he talks to the police, or maybe he attempts to file for a CK on you for attempting to murder him. Either way, it would be justified. Now if you're both just endlessly trying to go for PK's, you're both just being shit tier roleplayers. At some point you need to take consequences for your actions, and if you're going to kill someone or attempt to kill them over dumb shit (Which as even someone else mentioned in this thread, happens quite a bit), you should prepare to get some stuff thrown back your way. Wanna step into the kitchen, then prepare to take the heat. Otherwise, don't set yourself up for retaliation without a reason.

 

 

3.) You made this up. In this situation where his long-time "friend," shot him. And he finds out about it, they can RP that as they want. This is a player driven choice, that this rule wouldn't hinder or make. If you're legitimately trying to murder your friend, even under the current system, why the hell would you be interacting with him later like. "Yo', what's up homie." When you just earlier were blasting his ass. That is-...so poor, so stupid, and so monstrously dumb on the part of someone who does that. I honestly don't understand why this was even brought up. If the friend is trying to kill his friend, even right now. Then clearly he doesn't want to engage in friendly interactions. Under this system, that wouldn't change. Although it would allow for the possibility of the friend to learn what truly happened if he icly finds out the details.

 

And to your point of, "I'm sorry, but.... admin intervention doesn't automatically invalidate roleplay - people make mistakes and administration we'll continue to need administrators aslong as the server continues. " I never said it did, I never claimed it did, your putting words in my mouth. I said and I quote, "No true RP that's well done, and makes sense, requires a /report. IF you need a /report to handle an RP, something has gone wrong. Unless of course it's something only an admin can do like spawn items, or open a door, or something. " Admins are called in mostly to deal with dispute resolution between players, violations of rules, or handling of affairs legitimately only an admin can handle that needs to be done for a player IE the opening of door comment, etc.  Again, you're making a lot of claims about things, but not actually basing any of it in any evidence. And you don't seem to actually understand what we're trying to advocate for here, and seem to honestly be lost on the topic. This isn't hard to understand, and i'm not the first person to tell you how you were wrong on some of your details when you replied. I'm not saying this to be a dick or anything to you, but I'm saying this because a lot of what you're bring up is claims with zero support, contradictory facts that make no sense in your own sentences, misinterpretations of things I did not say or advocate, and just dismissals of information on the grounds of "Well it just will complicate things," without actually giving us examples of how it will complicate that hasn't been easily explained away. I'll quote Mr. @Henning from earlier (Thanks for this dawg);

 

 

Which is exactly in line with the suggestion, for the exact same reasons. 

This'll be my final reply.

 

That wouldn't be powergaming as the server already employs PKs/uses the new life rule previously explained.

 

1). It takes 4 shots, minimum to kill someone & a fifth to finish them off if they're in brutally wounded. The current system already accounts for players being able to realistically survive their injuries. If a player just 'runs off' without ensuring that person was dead, then they'd be perfectly capable of receiving medical attention and surviving if they're in this state. Gangsters don't check pulses, they just aim for the head. I'm not sure about you, but, I love watching videos of shootouts, and I assure you, you can reasonably predict if someone's still alive after a shooting as if you want someone dead, you're probably going to keep shooting until they stop moving. Furthermore, if they were to receive any headshots(which a good number of deaths do), this'd break the idea completely. Keep in-mind this also doesn't account for every situation possible so the system is flawed regardless. What if I just legitimately make sure he's dead?.. Which does happen, believe it or not. This also doesn't account for how they'd make it to the hospital.

 

And, deathmatcher? Well.. I'd never.. I haven't been punished on a roleplay server in around 5 years :x. Currently, out of the 4 characters I roleplay, only 1 of them has ever murdered someone. It's not really piss-poor roleplay, not only did I kill that person for what-ever reason I did in accordance to server rules and standards - NOW I have someone walking around who I attempted to murder, Making me even more shook and desperate to get this person off the streets. If that's poor roleplay in your book, idk what to tell you :x. I've roleplayed in government, gangs, PD, SD, law detectives, private detectives, mafias, cartels, you name it & understand there's many sides to the coin, your suggestion only benefits one side & even if I was a gang detective here at this very moment, I still wouldn't support this system as it's unfair and cannot realistically account for most of the deaths that occur on GTAW.

 

You're right, players are absolutely required to roleplay out their injuries & I'd bet that if you were shot 6 times you'd be as good as dead without alot of luck, and prompt medication attention - but, again - this is a game and the 'health' system is simply a way to make the game fun, and fair. When you dig too deep into a game, you're setting yourself up for failure as you will never - and i repeat never - see a game that can perfectly emulate real-life. Some real-life concepts are ignored for the sake of everyones sanity, and seamlessness. (Admins like to RP too!) We let the death/health system implemented to make that decision for us so it's fair to everyone across the board - without it - it'd be chaos. You're an extreme minority on GTAW, and it'd be realistically impossible to develop a proper game mode, and find the active playerbase that truly plays by the rules, doesn't manipulate them and administration willing to baby-sit everyone, and overlook everything that happens. It's impressive what's already been accomplished here & I assure you, it wasn't easy.

 

Your system relies on the fact that they can't 'confirm they're dead', this, in-turn would influence everyones decisions and unfairly 'check' and over-roleplay situations to ensure everyone they killed was a CK, since they have the 'confirmation', this turns something stupid into a valid CK. There are people here that play on the 'borderline' of the rules, and people who'd make characters specifically to kill others on - you'd need a whole team dedicated to make sure people weren't abusing their power/making new characters when-ever killing everyone bit them in the ass & roleplaying on that same character as-if they were the last one with no consequence.

 

I think you're inexperienced in the grand scheme and don't completely understand how much of a dramatic negative mess this'd bring. We're here to have fun, whilst taking into account others' experiences. I know the system you're proposing won't work for the simple fact that I've been in situations where I 'thought' a player died, and this lead to me actually killing them for the second time(The player had no complaints and recognized my right to from the start). The fact I was forced to murder someone today in a fashion that wouldn't be covered by the system you've wrote. I think you should just sit back and wait to see how the body system plays out, it may fix many of the issues you have with how everything currently works. Look at the bigger picture, don't scrutinize trivial things on an online roleplay server based off a modded GTA5 client

Edited by MikeTheMike
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2 hours ago, MikeTheMike said:

This'll be my final reply.

 

That wouldn't be powergaming as the server already employs PKs/uses the new life rule previously explained.

 

1). It takes 4 shots, minimum to kill someone & a fifth to finish them off if they're in brutally wounded. The current system already accounts for players being able to realistically survive their injuries. If a player just 'runs off' without ensuring that person was dead, then they'd be perfectly capable of receiving medical attention and surviving if they're in this state. Gangsters don't check pulses, they just aim for the head. I'm not sure about you, but, I love watching videos of shootouts, and I assure you, you can reasonably predict if someone's still alive after a shooting as if you want someone dead, you're probably going to keep shooting until they stop moving. Furthermore, if they were to receive any headshots(which a good number of deaths do), this'd break the idea completely. Keep in-mind this also doesn't account for every situation possible so the system is flawed regardless. What if I just legitimately make sure he's dead?.. Which does happen, believe it or not. This also doesn't account for how they'd make it to the hospital.

 

And, deathmatcher? Well.. I'd never.. I haven't been punished on a roleplay server in around 5 years :x. Currently, out of the 4 characters I roleplay, only 1 of them has ever murdered someone. It's not really piss-poor roleplay, not only did I kill that person for what-ever reason I did in accordance to server rules and standards - NOW I have someone walking around who I attempted to murder, Making me even more shook and desperate to get this person off the streets. If that's poor roleplay in your book, idk what to tell you :x. I've roleplayed in government, gangs, PD, SD, law detectives, private detectives, mafias, cartels, you name it & understand there's many sides to the coin, your suggestion only benefits one side & even if I was a gang detective here at this very moment, I still wouldn't support this system as it's unfair and cannot realistically account for most of the deaths that occur on GTAW.

 

You're right, players are absolutely required to roleplay out their injuries & I'd bet that if you were shot 6 times you'd be as good as dead without alot of luck, and prompt medication attention - but, again - this is a game and the 'health' system is simply a way to make the game fun, and fair. When you dig too deep into a game, you're setting yourself up for failure as you will never - and i repeat never - see a game that can perfectly emulate real-life. Some real-life concepts are ignored for the sake of everyones sanity, and seamlessness. (Admins like to RP too!) We let the death/health system implemented to make that decision for us so it's fair to everyone across the board - without it - it'd be chaos. You're an extreme minority on GTAW, and it'd be realistically impossible to develop a proper game mode, and find the active playerbase that truly plays by the rules, doesn't manipulate them and administration willing to baby-sit everyone, and overlook everything that happens. It's impressive what's already been accomplished here & I assure you, it wasn't easy.

 

Your system relies on the fact that they can't 'confirm they're dead', this, in-turn would influence everyones decisions and unfairly 'check' and over-roleplay situations to ensure everyone they killed was a CK, since they have the 'confirmation', this turns something stupid into a valid CK. There are people here that play on the 'borderline' of the rules, and people who'd make characters specifically to kill others on - you'd need a whole team dedicated to make sure people weren't abusing their power/making new characters when-ever killing everyone bit them in the ass & roleplaying on that same character as-if they were the last one with no consequence.

 

I think you're inexperienced in the grand scheme and don't completely understand how much of a dramatic negative mess this'd bring. We're here to have fun, whilst taking into account others' experiences. I know the system you're proposing won't work for the simple fact that I've been in situations where I 'thought' a player died, and this lead to me actually killing them for the second time(The player had no complaints and recognized my right to from the start). The fact I was forced to murder someone today in a fashion that wouldn't be covered by the system you've wrote. I think you should just sit back and wait to see how the body system plays out, it may fix many of the issues you have with how everything currently works. Look at the bigger picture, don't scrutinize trivial things on an online roleplay server based off a modded GTA5 client

I'll just bang these out since it's your final reply, and I'll just go by quotation:

 

1.) " It takes 4 shots, minimum to kill someone & a fifth to finish them off if they're in brutally wounded. The current system already accounts for players being able to realistically survive their injuries." 

 

You would be one of the first people I've met, that believes the current way the health system works accounts for someone realistically surviving an injury. If I get into a traffic accident right now on the server, my health isn't going to just go to zero. Despite the fact I'm not scriptwise wearing any protective gear like a seatbelt (Even if I RP it), and realistically if I don't put on an RP seatbelt for my crash I may fly through the windshield and out on the street giving me serious injuries, but the current health system doesn't reflect those realities nor can it. Or what if you shoot someone 1 time in the heart IG, or one time in the head. That won't be a PK, yet you clearly put a bullet towards it and they're fine according to the script and for some reason you believe the current health system realistically allows for survival of these injuries, when it in no way is even close. You are truly the very first person to ever make the argument that the current health system realistically accounts for survivability of injuries, no matter what they are. 

 

2.) "Gangsters don't check pulses, they just aim for the head. I'm not sure about you, but, I love watching videos of shootouts, and I assure you, you can reasonably predict if someone's still alive after a shooting as if you want someone dead, you're probably going to keep shooting until they stop moving."

 

You're right, they don't. Thanks for agreeing with me here as I said this at least twice. And just because someone stops moving if you shoot them, doesn't mean they're dead. States of Unconsciousness by traumatic injuries exists. 

 

3.) "What if I just legitimately make sure he's dead?.. Which does happen, believe it or not. This also doesn't account for how they'd make it to the hospital."

 

There would be no need to do that, if this was OOCly defined for PK's overall that it wouldn't be a full death so no "executions," would be able to be done in this manner. And you already respawn at the hospital when you die scriptwise. So clearly, even the script and server supports the idea that somehow these people got to the hospital. This isn't breaking any new ground that hasn't been acknowledged in some way lol. 

 

4.) "It's not really piss-poor roleplay, not only did I kill that person for what-ever reason I did in accordance to server rules and standards - NOW I have someone walking around who I attempted to murder, Making me even more shook and desperate to get this person off the streets. If that's poor roleplay in your book, idk what to tell you."

 

If you're legitimately trying to kill someone off permanently, it would be a CK. I called it piss-poor roleplay, because if you're that entrenched into ensuring someone actually truly dies, you would put in the work to ensure it would be a CK. Otherwise you're just deathmatching people, for stupid reasons. If you know from the OOC rules that a PK doesn't equal a murder, then you would roleplay any scenes associated with PK's differently. So that if you TRULY want to murder someone, it would be a CK and not a PK either by force (Application or Admin) or they voluntarily take it. This would be a non-issue.

 

5.)  "Your suggestion only benefits one side & even if I was a gang detective here at this very moment, I still wouldn't support this system as it's unfair and cannot realistically account for most of the deaths that occur on GTAW."

 

It doesn't benefit one side or the other, at all. It legit just makes it clear that PK's are not homicides, and CK's are. You RP accordingly with this information to either make your kills full homicides, or just spur of the moment violence like was mentioned in my earlier posts by another roleplayer who I tagged. The current system only benefits one side, because it effectively allows the criminal to destroy pretty much everyones roleplay from the victim (Who isn't allowed to remember anything about the incident or what happened before it thereby destroying any potential statements.), police/courts (Because they have to treat these interactions as homicides, and devote time to making casefiles and getting witness statements when the person PK'd is still actively walking around and probably having other run-ins with the police that they just have to conveniently ignore), medical personnel (Because they have to generate coroners reports, or other medical information on someone not actually dead.), bystanders (Because they have to destroy any real roleplay associated with the victim of the crime, if they were having any interactions with them prior to their deaths as it's basically treated as an NPC that got whacked.) And those are just off the top of my head. I think you're making this a problem, when it isn't. 

 

6.) You're right, players are absolutely required to roleplay out their injuries & I'd bet that if you were shot 6 times you'd be as good as dead without alot of luck, and prompt medication attention - but, again - this is a game and the 'health' system is simply a way to make the game fun, and fair. 

 

You just told me the health system was realistic, and now you're telling me that it may not be. This is what I mean by you giving out contradictory statements that make no sense. Because either you agree with me that the health system cannot accurately portray all injuries and is subject to a lot of faults, or you believe the opposite. You can't believe both at the same time, not how it works.

 

7.) Some real-life concepts are ignored for the sake of everyones sanity, and seamlessness. (Admins like to RP too!) We let the death/health system implemented to make that decision for us so it's fair to everyone across the board - without it - it'd be chaos.

 

I legitimately don't know why you brought this up, because it has nothing to do with this entire conversation. We're not implementing real-life concepts like a health injury system here. We're talking about simply defining the difference of an existing PK and CK, so people can properly roleplay them with OOC guidance in the server rules. Similiar  to how we write any other server rule. This is a red herring you keep making up, that has no basis. 

 

8.) You're an extreme minority on GTAW, and it'd be realistically impossible to develop a proper game mode, and find the active playerbase that truly plays by the rules, doesn't manipulate them and administration willing to baby-sit everyone, and overlook everything that happens. It's impressive what's already been accomplished here & I assure you, it wasn't easy.

 

Wut? How-....did you make this sentence? What am I an extreme minority in? When did I advocate such a playerbase exist? And what does any of this have to do with what's been accomplished on the server and how easy it was to do? I feel like you either entirely just made this up, or you have some really poor interpretation of what I've been saying. Because this is not in the slightest relevant, nor does it make any sense in the context of our conversation. 

 

9.) Your system relies on the fact that they can't 'confirm they're dead', this, in-turn would influence everyones decisions and unfairly 'check' and over-roleplay situations to ensure everyone they killed was a CK, since they have the 'confirmation', this turns something stupid into a valid CK.

 

I didn't say they "can't confirm they're dead." I said that they don't, because that would be stupid in the heat of the moment. So this is false. And idk what you are claiming is "over-roleplay," in a situation. But my point has been that, if you're legitimately gun-ho on murdering someone. Then it's best to legitimately make a case for why they should be murdered. Murder is not easy to do, nor do people just go around doing it willy-nilly like it's the average Sunday activity. If you're going to do it, you should have proper reasoning backing it up. And if the reasoning is proper, I don't see why it can't just be upgraded into a CK. Spur of the moment stuff can simply be a PK. And that's fine.  And there are already enough safeguards to protect against any stupid CK's, so I don't see this as being a legitimate counter unless you have problems with the current CK system procedures for how they're granted which is separate. 

 

10.) There are people here that play on the 'borderline' of the rules, and people who'd make characters specifically to kill others on - you'd need a whole team dedicated to make sure people weren't abusing their power/making new characters when-ever killing everyone bit them in the ass & roleplaying on that same character as-if they were the last one with no consequence.

 

Not sure what you define as "borderline," but if someone is truly playing that close to the line of breaking rules. They probably are a shit tier roleplayer who shouldn't be on the server to begin with. And there's a limit of how many characters that can be created, and if some roleplayer is constantly making all this character slots murderers just to go mess with people, that would be an issue for player management alone to go and correct. Since they correct shit like that quite often, and they do take that stuff seriously. If it's a pattern with someone, they'll be dealt with. 

 

11.) I think you're inexperienced in the grand scheme and don't completely understand how much of a dramatic negative mess this'd bring. We're here to have fun, whilst taking into account others' experiences. I know the system you're proposing won't work for the simple fact that I've been in situations where I 'thought' a player died, and this lead to me actually killing them for the second time(The player had no complaints and recognized my right to from the start). The fact I was forced to murder someone today in a fashion that wouldn't be covered by the system you've wrote. I think you should just sit back and wait to see how the body system plays out, it may fix many of the issues you have with how everything currently works.

 

This is the last thing I'll quote since it's pretty much the end but, you thorough this entire conversation could not name how this would bring a negative effect to the server and I asked for specifics, which you couldn't provide. Your responses this whole time have been "It's just bad. It'll be bad. It'll be negative." Yet never actually gave an example as to how. You got an example, then reply with one. Otherwise you're just basically hating on a system, simply because you dislike it. And I can't speak about this "situation," where you thought a player died because I wasn't there nor do I know the details. But the way I am interpreting it, is that you basically tried to PK someone and failed thinking you got them. And then later you found out there weren't PK'd and shot them again to finish it off. If that's the case, then you didn't "kill," him twice since he never died in the first place. Unless you're being extremely loose on terms and I'm not understanding you here. And I would love to hear this fashion of which you murdered someone, that somehow wouldn't be covered under the system that merely defines an existing system that deals with PK and CK's, because my suggestion doesn't change the PK's or CK's in terms of them being done. It just defines how we are to take them in a RP sense and thus wouldn't effect them in such a way that somehow by defining them the new system can't fit your RP. 

 

And this is just an observation, but I honestly don't think you understand what I'm trying to tell you. Because if you think the new body system is going to solve my issue, then I don't even really think you understand what the issue has been, because there is absolutely no way if you truly did understand it that you would make a comment believing the new body system would somehow magically fix a definition of an RP concept. Simply put, and as I said before I mean no disrespect even though I'm being rather candid, I don't think you've listened to most of what I've or others have said on the thread and I think you're really confused and believe this does something that  it doesn't. Because I am not the first person to tell you this stuff, and a lot of this has been regurgitation of information I've said and so have others to the point that I quoted from them directly. Since it's your last reply, I don't expect a response. But that's what I believe has been going on. 

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3 hours ago, MikeTheMike said:

Gangsters don't check pulses, they just aim for the head. I'm not sure about you, but, I love watching videos of shootouts, and I assure you, you can reasonably predict if someone's still alive after a shooting as if you want someone dead, you're probably going to keep shooting until they stop moving. 

We're roleplaying in America not Tamaulipas   or Idlib, a majority of people run immediately after shooting, once their target is out of sight, and/or once they see their target fall or visibly get (possibly) hit. Not keep dumping shots down the street or running up to your target for a minute, crossing your fingers a cop doesn't roll by and shoot you dead on the spot. 

 

 

 

As for the part of your post talking about the amount of shots, is that something that's suppose to be fixed with the new RageMP update or is that a server thing? More content based around injuries (bleeding out, something visible to showcase you're injured, etc) could mend the issues with that. 

Edited by Midwest
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On 11/17/2019 at 9:44 PM, Brett said:

I'll just bang these out since it's your final reply, and I'll just go by quotation:

 

1.) " It takes 4 shots, minimum to kill someone & a fifth to finish them off if they're in brutally wounded. The current system already accounts for players being able to realistically survive their injuries." 

 

You would be one of the first people I've met, that believes the current way the health system works accounts for someone realistically surviving an injury. If I get into a traffic accident right now on the server, my health isn't going to just go to zero. Despite the fact I'm not scriptwise wearing any protective gear like a seatbelt (Even if I RP it), and realistically if I don't put on an RP seatbelt for my crash I may fly through the windshield and out on the street giving me serious injuries, but the current health system doesn't reflect those realities nor can it. Or what if you shoot someone 1 time in the heart IG, or one time in the head. That won't be a PK, yet you clearly put a bullet towards it and they're fine according to the script and for some reason you believe the current health system realistically allows for survival of these injuries, when it in no way is even close. You are truly the very first person to ever make the argument that the current health system realistically accounts for survivability of injuries, no matter what they are. 

It accounts for - meaning it allows for in the scenario it'd be acceptable. That doesn't mean that you can get shot 6 times in the head and be revived by paramedics. The server also allows for players to PK without being in brutally wounded mode. The point is if you're killed according to how the script functions your realistic chance of survival is at phenomenally low.

 

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2.) "Gangsters don't check pulses, they just aim for the head. I'm not sure about you, but, I love watching videos of shootouts, and I assure you, you can reasonably predict if someone's still alive after a shooting as if you want someone dead, you're probably going to keep shooting until they stop moving."

 

You're right, they don't. Thanks for agreeing with me here as I said this at least twice. And just because someone stops moving if you shoot them, doesn't mean they're dead. States of Unconsciousness by traumatic injuries exists. 

In the majority of cases someone is shot 6 times, it'd be safe to assume their odds are survival are low. & The point is, if I hit someone with a headshot, there should be no realistic expectation of that person having anymore than a fraction of a percentage chance to survive. There's no need to check their pulse, they're definitely dead. & If you want people to roleplay injuries off the situation they were PKed from, then they're missing half their brain for the rest of their life and look like Frankenstein. Headshots are very common.

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3.) "What if I just legitimately make sure he's dead?.. Which does happen, believe it or not. This also doesn't account for how they'd make it to the hospital."

 

There would be no need to do that, if this was OOCly defined for PK's overall that it wouldn't be a full death so no "executions," would be able to be done in this manner. And you already respawn at the hospital when you die scriptwise. So clearly, even the script and server supports the idea that somehow these people got to the hospital. This isn't breaking any new ground that hasn't been acknowledged in some way lol. 

But, that means every death can result in a CK. No-one wants that, the topic has been argued numerous times and always reaches the same conclusion. You also can't deny the realism of the script in one sentence then argue that the script does it, so it must be fine in another. No-one's ever roleplayed coming out of the hospital after a PK. The hospital is a safe-zone, it makes sense to be teleported to one to collect your bearings and keep you away from whatever you died until the situation that had gotten you killed has concluded.

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4.) "It's not really piss-poor roleplay, not only did I kill that person for what-ever reason I did in accordance to server rules and standards - NOW I have someone walking around who I attempted to murder, Making me even more shook and desperate to get this person off the streets. If that's poor roleplay in your book, idk what to tell you."

 

If you're legitimately trying to kill someone off permanently, it would be a CK. I called it piss-poor roleplay, because if you're that entrenched into ensuring someone actually truly dies, you would put in the work to ensure it would be a CK. Otherwise you're just deathmatching people, for stupid reasons. If you know from the OOC rules that a PK doesn't equal a murder, then you would roleplay any scenes associated with PK's differently. So that if you TRULY want to murder someone, it would be a CK and not a PK either by force (Application or Admin) or they voluntarily take it. This would be a non-issue.

The difference between a CK and a PK isn't the effort put into the killing. It's the circumstances, reasoning, background, and situation, what his death would contribute to the development of the interaction and how vital it is for things to move forward. It's hard to explain to you as I'm fairly sure you don't have illegal roleplaying experience. Me roleplaying the murder of someone for a year and a half doesn't automatically transition it to a CK.

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5.)  "Your suggestion only benefits one side & even if I was a gang detective here at this very moment, I still wouldn't support this system as it's unfair and cannot realistically account for most of the deaths that occur on GTAW."

 

It doesn't benefit one side or the other, at all. It legit just makes it clear that PK's are not homicides, and CK's are. You RP accordingly with this information to either make your kills full homicides, or just spur of the moment violence like was mentioned in my earlier posts by another roleplayer who I tagged. The current system only benefits one side, because it effectively allows the criminal to destroy pretty much everyones roleplay from the victim (Who isn't allowed to remember anything about the incident or what happened before it thereby destroying any potential statements.), police/courts (Because they have to treat these interactions as homicides, and devote time to making casefiles and getting witness statements when the person PK'd is still actively walking around and probably having other run-ins with the police that they just have to conveniently ignore), medical personnel (Because they have to generate coroners reports, or other medical information on someone not actually dead.), bystanders (Because they have to destroy any real roleplay associated with the victim of the crime, if they were having any interactions with them prior to their deaths as it's basically treated as an NPC that got whacked.) And those are just off the top of my head. I think you're making this a problem, when it isn't. 

Well, yeah. They're dead. And, it's fine for their roleplay to be deleted in that instance as it doesn't harm their bigger picture 99% of the time, and if it is a very impactful death that directly conflicts with the fundamentals of their character - they should CK.

 

75% of murders are unsolved in Chicago, LS is a big city, CKs happen often enough, can't you just focus all your really in-depth roleplay onto these cases? There's more than enough room there to keep you occupied.

 

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6.) You're right, players are absolutely required to roleplay out their injuries & I'd bet that if you were shot 6 times you'd be as good as dead without alot of luck, and prompt medication attention - but, again - this is a game and the 'health' system is simply a way to make the game fun, and fair. 

 

You just told me the health system was realistic, and now you're telling me that it may not be. This is what I mean by you giving out contradictory statements that make no sense. Because either you agree with me that the health system cannot accurately portray all injuries and is subject to a lot of faults, or you believe the opposite. You can't believe both at the same time, not how it works.

It's flexible in the fact that it can account for 99% of situations, exclude bugs. Therefore reliable. The health system is simply something that says; stop, that's enough - you're definitely gone right now, pal. If you die by things that are roleplayed and not supported by the script - you can PK under the circumstances if you'd realistically be dead. Hypothetically speaking, if I were to for some reason kill someone with a fork, or by smashing their head to pieces with my car tires, we'd roleplay, then go our separate ways with the agreement of a PK without actually respawning/using the script to actually kill.

 

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7.) Some real-life concepts are ignored for the sake of everyones sanity, and seamlessness. (Admins like to RP too!) We let the death/health system implemented to make that decision for us so it's fair to everyone across the board - without it - it'd be chaos.

 

I legitimately don't know why you brought this up, because it has nothing to do with this entire conversation. We're not implementing real-life concepts like a health injury system here. We're talking about simply defining the difference of an existing PK and CK, so people can properly roleplay them with OOC guidance in the server rules. Similiar  to how we write any other server rule. This is a red herring you keep making up, that has no basis. 

It does. If you want every 'well roleplayed' death to be a CK, you're going to have a ton of reports, complaints, admin interventions and the same goes for PKs. I can already hear the complaints in my head.

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8.) You're an extreme minority on GTAW, and it'd be realistically impossible to develop a proper game mode, and find the active playerbase that truly plays by the rules, doesn't manipulate them and administration willing to baby-sit everyone, and overlook everything that happens. It's impressive what's already been accomplished here & I assure you, it wasn't easy.

 

Wut? How-....did you make this sentence? What am I an extreme minority in? When did I advocate such a playerbase exist? And what does any of this have to do with what's been accomplished on the server and how easy it was to do? I feel like you either entirely just made this up, or you have some really poor interpretation of what I've been saying. Because this is not in the slightest relevant, nor does it make any sense in the context of our conversation. 

You have extreme views on how things should be carried out, and therefore are apart of a minority of people who actually want this change.

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9.) Your system relies on the fact that they can't 'confirm they're dead', this, in-turn would influence everyones decisions and unfairly 'check' and over-roleplay situations to ensure everyone they killed was a CK, since they have the 'confirmation', this turns something stupid into a valid CK.

 

I didn't say they "can't confirm they're dead." I said that they don't, because that would be stupid in the heat of the moment. So this is false. And idk what you are claiming is "over-roleplay," in a situation. But my point has been that, if you're legitimately gun-ho on murdering someone. Then it's best to legitimately make a case for why they should be murdered. Murder is not easy to do, nor do people just go around doing it willy-nilly like it's the average Sunday activity. If you're going to do it, you should have proper reasoning backing it up. And if the reasoning is proper, I don't see why it can't just be upgraded into a CK. Spur of the moment stuff can simply be a PK. And that's fine.  And there are already enough safeguards to protect against any stupid CK's, so I don't see this as being a legitimate counter unless you have problems with the current CK system procedures for how they're granted which is separate. 

Not every death is in the heat of the moment, this system yet again doesn't account for another scenario - making this even more confusing and filled with more loopholes than the current.

 

The vast majority of PKs have a proper reason behind it, if they didn't, then people'd be getting ajailed every 3 minutes. This just means no-one's going to have a character for more than a week. You'd effectively kill illegal roleplay if they even tried to do this.

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10.) There are people here that play on the 'borderline' of the rules, and people who'd make characters specifically to kill others on - you'd need a whole team dedicated to make sure people weren't abusing their power/making new characters when-ever killing everyone bit them in the ass & roleplaying on that same character as-if they were the last one with no consequence.

 

Not sure what you define as "borderline," but if someone is truly playing that close to the line of breaking rules. They probably are a shit tier roleplayer who shouldn't be on the server to begin with. And there's a limit of how many characters that can be created, and if some roleplayer is constantly making all this character slots murderers just to go mess with people, that would be an issue for player management alone to go and correct. Since they correct shit like that quite often, and they do take that stuff seriously. If it's a pattern with someone, they'll be dealt with. 

They probably are, yeah, but there are people who go between serious roleplay and trolling that fall through the cracks, and trust me, you don't want your well developed character to encounter them if everything's a CK.

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11.) I think you're inexperienced in the grand scheme and don't completely understand how much of a dramatic negative mess this'd bring. We're here to have fun, whilst taking into account others' experiences. I know the system you're proposing won't work for the simple fact that I've been in situations where I 'thought' a player died, and this lead to me actually killing them for the second time(The player had no complaints and recognized my right to from the start). The fact I was forced to murder someone today in a fashion that wouldn't be covered by the system you've wrote. I think you should just sit back and wait to see how the body system plays out, it may fix many of the issues you have with how everything currently works.

 

This is the last thing I'll quote since it's pretty much the end but, you thorough this entire conversation could not name how this would bring a negative effect to the server and I asked for specifics, which you couldn't provide. Your responses this whole time have been "It's just bad. It'll be bad. It'll be negative." Yet never actually gave an example as to how. You got an example, then reply with one. Otherwise you're just basically hating on a system, simply because you dislike it. And I can't speak about this "situation," where you thought a player died because I wasn't there nor do I know the details. But the way I am interpreting it, is that you basically tried to PK someone and failed thinking you got them. And then later you found out there weren't PK'd and shot them again to finish it off. If that's the case, then you didn't "kill," him twice since he never died in the first place. Unless you're being extremely loose on terms and I'm not understanding you here. And I would love to hear this fashion of which you murdered someone, that somehow wouldn't be covered under the system that merely defines an existing system that deals with PK and CK's, because my suggestion doesn't change the PK's or CK's in terms of them being done. It just defines how we are to take them in a RP sense and thus wouldn't effect them in such a way that somehow by defining them the new system can't fit your RP. 

 

And this is just an observation, but I honestly don't think you understand what I'm trying to tell you. Because if you think the new body system is going to solve my issue, then I don't even really think you understand what the issue has been, because there is absolutely no way if you truly did understand it that you would make a comment believing the new body system would somehow magically fix a definition of an RP concept. Simply put, and as I said before I mean no disrespect even though I'm being rather candid, I don't think you've listened to most of what I've or others have said on the thread and I think you're really confused and believe this does something that  it doesn't. Because I am not the first person to tell you this stuff, and a lot of this has been regurgitation of information I've said and so have others to the point that I quoted from them directly. Since it's your last reply, I don't expect a response. But that's what I believe has been going on. 

I've provided more than enough specifics to how it'd play out and what's wrong with what you've suggested. The system is flawed, and I'm doing my best to educate you on your shortcoming of understanding and information. If the information I've given doesn't show you how ineffective and sloppy the implementation would be then I'm sorry, but, you do need to experience more situations from my side of the fence and I've been on yours. I figured I could maybe give a good backlog of information large enough to prevent this topic from being made again, and again.

 

Sorry for saying that was my last reply, had to clear up some confusion from it.

Edited by MikeTheMike
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1 hour ago, Midwest said:

We're roleplaying in America not Tamaulipas   or Idlib, a majority of people run immediately after shooting, once their target is out of sight, and/or once they see their target fall or visibly get (possibly) hit. Not keep dumping shots down the street or running up to your target for a minute, crossing your fingers a cop doesn't roll by and shoot you dead on the spot. 

 

 

 

As for the part of your post talking about the amount of shots, is that something that's suppose to be fixed with the new RageMP update or is that a server thing? More content based around injuries (bleeding out, something visible to showcase you're injured, etc) could mend the issues with that. 

We're roleplaying in the fictional city of Los Santos and certain real world comparisons such as this one hold no merit.

 

& If someone has a proper reason to kill someone, they're likely to make sure they're dead. Watch videos of how killings take place here: Tell me how many of these people could realistically survive - not to mention, the majority of shootouts already do end in executions of the losing party. Go watch any DM video and you'll see the same thing over and over. These people are not getting back up.

 

 

In these rule abiding and realistic scenarios(Despite a bit of excessive shooting in the first), if this rule was employed, you now have all the people they've killed able to attack back knowing the entire scenario if 1 of them survives. Screwing with illegal roleplay, plotholes, the works. It simply doesn't work and never will. Or, should we just force-ck everyone that died in the 2nd video? Lose the faction they've likely spent months building up just because of this one situation? No-one on the illegal side would care about the character they've created. RP quality would get worse. Paranoia would cause more and more deaths, people act irrational in situations where  something they hold onto is at stake.

Edited by MikeTheMike
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6 minutes ago, MikeTheMike said:

We're roleplaying in the fictional city of Los Santos and certain real world comparisons such as this one hold no merit.

 

& If someone has a proper reason to kill someone, they're likely to make sure they're dead. Watch videos of how killings take place here: Tell me how many of these people could realistically survive - not to mention, the majority of shootouts already do end in executions of the losing party. Go watch any DM video and you'll see the same thing over and over. These people are not getting back up.

 

 

If script limitations cause the need for walking up to ensure the death, that's not something to fault GTA:W for. 

 

The first one was absolutely horrible, the people easily sent 100+ shots with automatic firearms, then proceeded to spend a extra minute on scene magdumping into the bodies over and over despite them 100% being dead multiple times over. 

 

The second was alright, what I see is mostly him shooting people multiple times and going up because of the script, nothing wrong with that. But in a few occasions, such as on a gang shootout in broad daylight, especially in a very public place, it's very stupid both in game and in reality to go up to people to ensure they're all dead and waste time dumping rounds into them, that's far from frequent. 

Edited by Midwest
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11 minutes ago, Midwest said:

If script limitations cause the need for walking up to ensure the death, that's not something to fault GTA:W for. 

 

The first one was absolutely horrible, the people easily sent 100+ shots with automatic firearms, then proceeded to spend a extra minute on scene magdumping into the bodies over and over despite them 100% being dead multiple times over. 

 

The second was alright, what I see is mostly him shooting people multiple times and going up because of the script, nothing wrong with that. But in a few occasions, such as on a gang shootout in broad daylight, especially in a very public place, it's very stupid both in game and in reality to go up to people to ensure they're all dead and waste time dumping rounds into them, that's far from frequent.

 

I'd say a good 90% of 'finishers' in the BW mode that I've done, or have seen others do ends in a headshot. These players are definitely not just shooting and running, they aim to kill, I, personally dump more than what the script needs as realistically, if I'm already committing to murder someone - there's no chance I can allow them to survive the encounter. and this is something that happens very often - it's not a one-off scenario. Go watch more videos and you'll see.

 

If this was implemented, you bet your ass everyone would dump clips into people.

 

If you're only worried about gang shootouts in broad daylight, there are many other ways to prevent this from happening. Faction Management is already more than happy to listen in on any quality complaints and direct it to their faction if it holds merit - the faction can then either change, or be shut down.

 

Watch this as an example, this player put a person into BW, kept shooting even before the bullets would register it as a death - and even after he had truly died by the script. This is what I do in 90% of situations, and what I also see others do in personal experience.

 

The first video in the last reply was simply an example of a situation the suggestion couldn't hold up.

 

Edited by MikeTheMike
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To the above @MikeTheMike.

 

1.) The point that if the script has killed you, your odds of survival are low that you were trying to make had zero relation to the words you put in the reply. Because your reply to this point indicated that you were talking about medical care in general, in regards to people just being casually injured and not PK'd. Hence how I responded in the way I did. This wasn't out of context, when you talk about how many shots it takes to die, and then say the system is rather realistic. There's no reasonable way I could've made your point out to be that "if you're killed according to how the script functions your realistic chance of survival is at phenomenally low." You missed the mark on this one with your point, but I thank you for the clarification now.

 

2.) I agree with you that if someone is shot in the head, they most likely aren't surviving. But that wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the Pre-PK situations, where you can shoot someone in the head once and a vast majority will act as if that didn't happen and back it up by "Well, I didn't scriptwise die. So I wasn't really injured that bad." And Headshots are not common IRL, at all. And no serious shooter or casual shooter just aims for the head IRL, you aim center-mass because it gives you the highest percentage to hit. If you're talking about Headshots in the IG, then that's sad, but even then I don't see how it's relevant to this conversation.

 

3.) Currently any death CAN result in a CK now. What's your point? And you're right, nobody has RP'd coming out the hospital after a PK. Because under the current system, PK's are treated as if they were murdered, yet the script spawns them at the hospital. That's my only point I was making, in that scriptwise by server function it spawns PK'd people at the hospital. And so there is some inherent belief in that the hospital and your supposed "death," have some relation that is acknowledged even subtly. 

 

4.) A lot of the difference between the two have to do with reasoning, and yes circumstance does matter in some respect, but again murder isn't something you do just willy-nilly. There was a completely separate thread here talking about the piss poor PK's being conducted that got a lot of traction for the discussion which you can see here to prove my point. A lot of things that usually become PK's, are kinda shitty in general. And wouldn't pass a CK muster for a true murder. And that was my only point. And nobody is arguing into transitioning stuff  into a CK from previous stuff. Idk where that came from. 

 

5.) In YOUR opinion it's "fine." Because you're the active one who at least in my interpretation, seems to benefit from the system being PK's. But I guarantee you the other side who had some other RP going on and would like to keep that RP, aren't satisfied when they have to erase a lot of their previous RP just to accommodate you. And for someone here claiming how we can't be too realistic, it's very interesting how somehow Chicago is going to now be a staple of your argument to a situation which has nothing to do with murder rates, or crime rates. We're talking about an RP concept, not crime statistics of a city. 

 

6.) We weren't arguing flexibility, or reliability of the system. We were arguing if it was entirely realistic. This entire paragraph of yours is therefor irrelevant 100% to the conversation. 

 

7.) You act like we're removing PK's. We're not. Spur of the moment stuff is still going to exist. And since we can't "prove," the amount of reports and such that will come in the future either way. I'm not going to address that, because you can't 100% say that's going to happen or not. 

 

8.) Extreme views of what? A lot of people on this thread actually advocated going even farther with the CK's, then I have to the point I had to bring the topic back to what we are actually discussing. This isn't an extreme view in the slightest, just to get a definition. 

 

9.) Refer to this entire thread, for a quick debunking of how untrue this is. 

 

10.) Red herring, I never said we should only enforce CK's. Nor is that anything my suggestion advocates or requests. 

 

11.) And here we go again with this "It's flawed," yet you still have not provided a single example. This is legitimately the third time I have asked you for EXAMPLES. Like, an actual situation where my system would be flawed. And you're hiding behind the, "Well it's just flawed." And acting like that in itself is proof for why it's flawed. One example of how this system can fail, please provide. If you can't, then you're just making stuff up. 

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