Redefine PK's and CK's Officially

[shiroq]

This thread makes 0 sense and has been discussed about a thousand times.
 

PK's are a tool to cut rp with someone quickly. CK's can take weeks sometimes month to pull off to gather evidence. Sometimes someone has done enough to get killed but not enough to get Ck'ed if the bar for CK's is lowered then majority of the playerbase will be making characters every week.

This system has been in place for years even in sa-mp and it has worked and continues to work. If you interact with someone who you have seen die then this is your own problem if not being able to forget who they are. Whenever i have seen someone who I have pked or been apart of pking, I just actively avoid them or limit my rp with them to very short answers and things like that if it is in a public setting like a bar or whatever.

Edited November 17, 2019 by shiroq

[Brett]

25 minutes ago, shiroq said:

This thread makes 0 sense and has been discussed about a thousand times.
 

PK's are a tool to cut rp with someone quickly. CK's can take weeks sometimes month to pull off to gather evidence. Sometimes someone has done enough to get killed but not enough to get Ck'ed if the bar for CK's is lowered then majority of the playerbase will be making characters every week.

This system has been in place for years even in sa-mp and it has worked and continues to work. If you interact with someone who you have seen die then this is your own problem if not being able to forget who they are. Whenever i have seen someone who I have pked or been apart of pking, I just actively avoid them or limit my rp with them to very short answers and things like that if it is in a public setting like a bar or whatever.

How does the system "work," in it's current form if by your own admission when you PK people, you have to change your entire method of interacting just to have it make sense to yourself of how they're not living. Or responding to them with "very short answers." Why very short? Why not RP with them like you would RP with someone who wasn't PK'd? I think you know the answer, because it's the very problem this thread is addressing. You cannot hold the opinion that the current system is fine, yet also say that you have to limit RP and responses to them just to ensure this weird system works (Works as in, make sense). If the system works so well, you wouldn't  have any need to  castrate parts of your own RP around certain people because it OOCly makes you uncomfortable knowing that YOU pk'd someone (Who under these wonky rules, most likely isn't even allowed to recognize you since losing memory and all), and is making you change up your RP for something that shouldn't even have to be RP'd in that form at all. Just because something has been a way for a long time, doesn't mean it's worked, or should continue to exist. 

 

And I haven't seen this type of thread discussed before. I've seen threads about making PK's more frequent, or CK's more frequent. I've seen threads advocating abolishing PK's or CK's. I've seen threads about things related to CK's or PK's such as CK app suggestions, and what not. But never, have I seen a thread just advocating a formal defining of the PK and CK in an OOC sense so people can actually understand what the hell they mean from one standard rather then this double reality people just live in. Feel free to prove me wrong on that one, but I think you are thinking this thread is doing something, that it isn't. 

[mikethemike]

The only way to stop these inconsistencies is to enforce every death as a CK. The overwhelming majority of us don't want that, and those that do often don't understand the consequences that'd stem from it. There have been countless discussions on the matter that you can look into. The system isn't perfect, but it's what works best for the game-mode. Again, look into the countless 'CK' topics and you'll figure out how unpredictable humans can be when put into situations that should make them do 1 thing in theory, yet they do the other. There were many changes suggested throughout the years, in both this, and other longstanding GTA communities regarding the exact same thing you're bringing up - but theory of something working and actual practice are two different things.

 

We don't want PKs to be seen as 'near death experiences' instead of deaths, or else we wouldn't of killed that player. & Any other workaround would be as messy, if not worse. We don't want PKs to be anything besides what they currently are. Redefining them is pointless and I have yet to see anyone in this thread offer a reasonable solution to the issue that isn't 'CK everyone that dies' - and I truly don't believe there is one. I've explained to you why we accept PKs in roleplay, and why the PK rules have a need to be open to interpretation. It's not an oversight, it's planned.

 

All-in-all, everyone has their own issues with how anything works, that's why we have different political parties - why we have different genres of music, games, everything. GTAW offers a reasonable basis for anyone to bring any sort of character into the game and roleplay to a more than reasonable realistic level on a fair playing field for all players. Without intimate knowledge on how these things truly affect the game, many things sound good in theory but are infact toxic to the experience.

 

This is a game emulating real-life, and as you know, real-life gets complicated. You can't expect a 1:1 experience and no-one wants one. A good server has a well balanced mix between realism and fun. Stop spending so much time on the small details and look at the bigger picture and hopefully you'll find yourself satisfied with your time here as most of us are.

Edited November 17, 2019 by MikeTheMike

[Brett]

2 hours ago, MikeTheMike said:

The only way to stop these inconsistencies is to enforce every death as a CK. The overwhelming majority of us don't want that, and those that do often don't understand the consequences that'd stem from it. There have been countless discussions on the matter that you can look into. The system isn't perfect, but it's what works best for the game-mode. Again, look into the countless 'CK' topics and you'll figure out how unpredictable humans can be when put into situations that should make them do 1 thing in theory, yet they do the other. There were many changes suggested throughout the years, in both this, and other longstanding GTA communities regarding the exact same thing you're bringing up - but theory of something working and actual practice are two different things.

 

We don't want PKs to be seen as 'near death experiences' instead of deaths, or else we wouldn't of killed that player. & Any other workaround would be as messy, if not worse. We don't want PKs to be anything besides what they currently are. Redefining them is pointless and I have yet to see anyone in this thread offer a reasonable solution to the issue that isn't 'CK everyone that dies' - and I truly don't believe there is one. I've explained to you why we accept PKs in roleplay, and why the PK rules have a need to be open to interpretation. It's not an oversight, it's planned.

 

All-in-all, everyone has their own issues with how anything works, that's why we have different political parties - why we have different genres of music, games, everything. GTAW offers a reasonable basis for anyone to bring any sort of character into the game and roleplay to a more than reasonable realistic level on a fair playing field for all players. Without intimate knowledge on how these things truly affect the game, many things sound good in theory but are infact toxic to the experience.

 

This is a game emulating real-life, and as you know, real-life gets complicated. You can't expect a 1:1 experience and no-one wants one. A good server has a well balanced mix between realism and fun. Stop spending so much time on the small details and look at the bigger picture and hopefully you'll find yourself satisfied with your time here as most of us are.

There is nothing "small" and nothing "complicated," about wanting to ensure that when someone is "dead." They are legitimately "dead." I don't know why you believe that this is going to result in a radical redefine of the entire server, when all it would do is make a definition between what makes them different. And from your own statement here, "We don't want PKs to be seen as 'near death experiences' instead of deaths, or else we wouldn't of killed that player." Maybe this is part of the problem lol. PK's don't actually kill anyone, as they simply respawn later. And if you don't want to put in actual RP work to try and legitimately kill someone, then that's on you, because maybe that's saying that you don't really have good reasons to just go around PKing everyone to begin with just so you can get the rush of supposedly "killing," someone. We're emulating real life, and this won't stop you from roleplaying npr will this impose unreasonable burdens. This suggestion doesn't get rid of PK's, it simply redefines them from murders to near death experiences. And for some reason you really have an issue with this, simply because I believe you just like the idea that you can "kill," a player and not receive really any legitimate consequences or go through legitimately the hard work that actually goes into bringing about the death of someone. 

 

Killing isn't as easy as people in this game seem to like it to be. Nobody really roleplays the psychological effects of a shooting, whether they are the shooter doing it, or a bystander who happened to witness it. Nobody really roleplays all the trauma this stuff really causes, or the effects it would realistically have. This is why you end up with situations where you got people claiming  that they're putting people to death left and right, because they can basically stack PK's on their criminal records and claim all those are "deaths." Then you end up with people with like 20x Murder charges, still walking around Los Santos like they're hard because they could PK someone. This game emulates real life, and to basically accept that a "death," in the form of a PK is a legitimate "death," of that player even though they can respawn and walk around etc is real life (A  claim someone else has pushed back on you about as well), isn't in the slightest emulating real life, nor even the basic rules of-....well anything. You know how you have fun on a roleplay server? You roleplay. You wanna act like you're this tuff murderer on the streets who put anyone who steps to you in the ground, do it. But you should also be prepared for some legitimately harsh consequences, because murder IRL and IG is no joke. And shouldn't be treated as a joke, simply because. "It's just for the funz bruh. Idc if it breaks immersion, let me get the PK." 

[mikethemike]

Okay. What's your suggestion to fix these issues?

 

I'd also like to mention that you've misunderstood and have taken many of my points out of context, I feel like we'll end up in an endless loop of back and forth, so I'll hear you out. If you're simply given a "near-death experience" when you're PKed it leads to more, and more inconsistencies and unfair situations for players. That doesn't work. Did you have any other ideas? How are these issues fixed?

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by MikeTheMike

[Brett]

1 hour ago, MikeTheMike said:

Okay. What's your suggestion to fix these issues?

 

I'd also like to mention that you've misunderstood and have taken many of my points out of context, I feel like we'll end up in an endless loop of back and forth, so I'll hear you out. If you're simply given a "near-death experience" when you're PKed it leads to more, and more inconsistencies and unfair situations for players. That doesn't work. Did you have any other ideas? How are these issues fixed?

 

I've given you my suggestions. Multiple times, and it's stated in the first page. Please explain what I've "misunderstood," about your points. Because this is the first time in the conversation we've been having that you have made this claim. And you keep claiming that this "near-death experience," will lead to more inconsistencies but have not once actually given an example of an inconsistency that could lead to, you've just been claiming that it would. I would legitimately like to hear of one possible inconsistency this system I have proposed would produce, and what I have apparently misunderstood. Please clarify. 

[varrio bangin]

I'm not for the idea that every death should be classified as a CK. That's literal nonsense. Yes, there is a problem with how PKs are acted upon and the confusion it may bring, but that's just plain out stupid. That even happening in general carries more negatives than there is positive.

I've never had any problems with PKs/CKs, even with my time on LS-RP. If I killed somebody and met up with them sometime later I lose any kind of familiarity with that person. I treat them as a whole new person no matter the past situation. We start off neutral until further notice, More than not, it's vice versa. In my opinion, that's how things should be. If there's a bigger enough reasoning behind actually killing somebody that's not just petty gang violence, petty personal disputes, etc. then it should be classified as a CK. I'm speaking of snitches within factions, people who flip sides, major faction conflict, power transitions, being gunned down by the police in a huge shootout  etc. 

Imo people are just over-thinking a bunch of aspects that literally don't matter. It's been in effect for years upon years now, and the topic has already been in and out of forums for who knows how long. 

You have people being murdered over the mere fact of punching someone in the face, initiating brawls, throwing around racial slurs, petty personal disputes, robberies gone wrong, petty gang conflict (which is a big negative in that aspect), etc. I'm not, nor anyone else would rather, make an entire different character over the scenarios as listed and more. If there's thought, prior RP, actual good reasoning to end someone's Character Development in its entirety, alongside just overall decent RP then it should be classified as a CK. Anything else should be a PK. That's my two cents.

 

Pretty sure the people who actually been here for months on top of months wouldn't be happy with the new system being put in, seeing as their characters would be wiped for the simplest of issues that could less likely end in bloodshed, but as it's GTA:W, it's a high probability.

Edited November 17, 2019 by varrio bangin

[mikethemike]

On 11/15/2019 at 5:17 AM, Gall said:

On a side-note, this does cause further complications.

It would essentially create three realities:

1) The suspect's reality where they killed someone, a definite one such as a dozen shots into their body or one to their head.

2) The reality of the PKed victim who can't remember anything and goes on like nothing happened / The reality where they miraculously got up and survived a full clip to their body. 

3) The court/detective reality where the suspect is charged with attempted murder.

@Brett

You never addressed this. Is this wrong?

 

In my opinion, this 'reclassification' would only benefit niche sections of law enforcement, but causes issues for everyone else. In my 10 years of roleplaying I've never had a legitimate problem regarding a PK that wasn't properly dealt with with a simple /report.

Edited November 17, 2019 by MikeTheMike

[Brett]

38 minutes ago, varrio bangin said:

I'm not for the idea that every death should be classified as a CK. That's literal nonsense. Yes, there is a problem with how PKs are acted upon and the confusion it may bring, but that's just plain out stupid. That even happening in general carries more negatives than there is positive.

I've never had any problems with PKs/CKs, even with my time on LS-RP. If I killed somebody and met up with them sometime later I lose any kind of familiarity with that person. I treat them as a whole new person no matter the past situation. We start off neutral until further notice, More than not, it's vice versa. In my opinion, that's how things should be. If there's a bigger enough reasoning behind actually killing somebody that's not just petty gang violence, petty personal disputes, etc. then it should be classified as a CK. I'm speaking of snitches within factions, people who flip sides, major faction conflict, power transitions, being gunned down by the police in a huge shootout  etc. 

Imo people are just over-thinking a bunch of aspects that literally don't matter. It's been in effect for years upon years now, and the topic has already been in and out of forums for who knows how long. 

You have people being murdered over the mere fact of punching someone in the face, initiating brawls, throwing around racial slurs, petty personal disputes, robberies gone wrong, petty gang conflict (which is a big negative in that aspect), etc. I'm not, nor anyone else would rather, make an entire different character over the scenarios as listed and more. If there's thought, prior RP, actual good reasoning to end someone's Character Development in its entirety, alongside just overall decent RP then it should be classified as a CK. Anything else should be a PK. That's my two cents.

 

Pretty sure the people who actually been here for months on top of months wouldn't be happy with the new system being put in, seeing as their characters would be wiped for the simplest of issues that could less likely end in bloodshed, but as it's GTA:W, it's a high probability.

Just a note, the topic isn't really about every death being a CK or not. That's just a side note people personally claim to advocate, but the core of this suggestion has nothing to do with that. Still appreciate the input though, but do want to clear up any possible confusion with that just to not go off topic. 

 

22 minutes ago, MikeTheMike said:

@Brett

You never addressed this. Is this wrong?

 

In my opinion, this 'reclassification' would only benefit niche sections of law enforcement, but causes issues for everyone else. In my 10 years of roleplaying I've never had a legitimate problem regarding a PK that wasn't properly dealt with with a simple /report.

1.) Yea, the suspect may believe they killed someone. Just like a robber IRL who shots someone and they rush away after seeing them fall to the ground, may believe they killed someone. This is not reality breaking, as these people aren't going to be rply checking pulses and everything after a shooting. But trying to evade before police come, etc. This is a non-issue.

2.) Under this definition, a PK'd person may not remember details of the shooter, but can still remember being involved in a shooting that landed them in the hospital. Maybe their friends (If they were there and didn't get PK'd), can later fill them in on details ICly and this could lead to further RP developments in relation. They can wipe the memory of the shooter, but still have the memory of being involved in a shooting and the inherent "fuzzyness," this brings to their memory can be used positively and in a way that makes sense. This is a non-issue. 

3.) This isn't an issue. This is what we want to happen. Because since the victim isn't actually dead, the detectives would be investigating a possible homicide attempt as that is what it is. And the courts would be able to call the victim as a witness to describe the lead up to the shooting, even like I said before if they can't remember the shooter, but still have memory of being involved in some gun fight. This opens up a lot of RP opportunities, and ways for others around them to build up RP in response. This isn't breaking any reality, it's actually fixing it.

 

So idk what you mean by wrong, because none of these are issues or exactly what should be happening. And with your point of, "I've never had a legitimate problem regarding a PK that wasn't properly dealt with with a simple /report." Is true. Then that's the very issue. No true RP that's well done, and makes sense, requires a /report. IF you need a /report to handle an RP, something has gone wrong. Unless of course it's something only an admin can do like spawn items, or open a door, or something. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Brett

[mikethemike]

36 minutes ago, Brett said:

Just a note, the topic isn't really about every death being a CK or not. That's just a side note people personally claim to advocate, but the core of this suggestion has nothing to do with that. Still appreciate the input though, but do want to clear up any possible confusion with that just to not go off topic. 

 

1.) Yea, the suspect may believe they killed someone. Just like a robbery IRL who shots someone and they rush away after seeing them fall to the ground, may believe they killed someone. This is not reality breaking, as these people aren't going to be rply checking pulses and everything after a shooting. But trying to evade before police come, etc. This is a non-issue.

2.) Under this definition, a PK'd person may not remember details of the shooter, but can still remember being involved in a shooting that landed them in the hospital. Maybe their friends (If they were there and didn't get CK'd), can later fill them in on details ICly and this could lead to further RP developments in relation. They can wipe the memory of the shooter, but still have the memory of being involved in a shooting and the inherent "fuzzyness," this brings to their memory can be used positively and in a way that makes sense. This is a non-issue. 

3.) This isn't an issue. This is what we want to happen. Because since the victim isn't actually dead, the detectives would be investigating a possible homicide attempt as that is what it is. And the courts would be able to call the victim as a witness to describe the lead up to the shooting, even like I said before if they can't remember the shooter, but still have memory of being involved in some gun fight. This opens up a lot of RP opportunities, and ways for others around them to build up RP in response. This isn't breaking any reality, it's actually fixing it.

 

So idk what you mean by wrong, because none of these are issues or exactly what should be happening. And with your point of, "I've never had a legitimate problem regarding a PK that wasn't properly dealt with with a simple /report." Is true. Then that's the very issue. No true RP that's well done, and makes sense, requires a /report. IF you need a /report to handle an RP, something has gone wrong. Unless of course it's something only an admin can do like spawn items, or open a door, or something. 

2.0 Powergaming

---

 

It is not allowed to perform actions which would not be possible in real life either, this is not limited to roleplay through /me. It is not allowed to force actions upon another player.

 

1), If my character intended to kill someone, they'd likely ensure they were dead. Furthermore, if I seen someone I had just "PKed" on the street, I'd kill them again. This isn't fair to me, nor the player. Should I forget his face too?.. Not to mention it's blatant powergame. What if this person is killed in a back-alley, or their body was hidden/disposed of? How is it realistic for the paramedics to head that way? This doesn't cover all possible death scenarios and would create alternate realities just like the already standing system - meaning - admin intervention would be necessary in 9/10 PKs to look-over and dictate the circumstances.

 

2). So, you're saying that your system is just magically forgetting the name/face of the shooter whilst remembering all other details? This is a bit silly, but.. I'll bite. Lets say it did work. What if their friends were around? "Yo, Jimmy! You okay?? Shit, how'd you get to the hospital? David shot you eight times!" - Now Jimmy's going to go over and kill David as he's learned his shooters identity and/or talk to the police.. meaning.. a CK would be the ONLY way to suppress information or to silence someone who seen you committing a crime.. and as we've already covered.. this isn't fair to anyone.

 

3) Yeah, but, what if the person who shot him was a long-time friend of his? Do they just interact normally as-if nothing happened - considering he doesn't remember who shot him? Doesn't that directly go against the entire thing you've laid out here?

 

I'm sorry, but.... admin intervention doesn't automatically invalidate roleplay - people make mistakes and we'll continue to need administrators aslong as the server continues. Your ideas limit roleplay and cause more inconsistencies and troubles for the administration than what we currently have.

Edited November 18, 2019 by MikeTheMike