Redefine PK's and CK's Officially

[mikethemike]

The terms of a PK are the following; if killed by another player, you lose all knowledge of that specific situation - accompanied with any knowledge obtained, about, from, or by that individual. Imagine if that player simply never existed in your world. That is the basics of receiving a PK from someone. The terms and conditions vary case-to-case as there's alot to account for, and outlining any rules would jumble it up no matter how you did it and would simply add more and more complications. Generally speaking, the killed player is allowed to continue to do what-ever he likes aslong as it is fair to the player that had done the killing.

 

If your friend is PKed infront of you? Then the event leading up to him being PKed simply didn't happen. The player that was PK'd didn't do it. It was another random individual who held the same respect in your eyes as the other. Imagine each situation as its own instance - and if a player is killed in that instance - they are void from that specific instance - but are free to continue on as-if all the other instances they've participated in are still relevant.

 

It'd be impossible to define and outline every possible condition as every one is unique. In the situation where a PK may conflict with roleplay? Talk it out like adults, figure out the fairest way to handle that situation - if that cannot be done between yourself? Contact an administrator.

 

Understand that CKs are made for the unique situations that a PK would heavily disrupt continuity, and the roleplay of others.

 

7 hours ago, Brett said:

And creating two realities like that is the problem. How exactly do avenge your "friend," in an IC RP scene who is dead, yet on the block talking to you days later? This is what doesn't make sense. 

 

When this happens, we simply project our relationship/feelings toward that person to an NPC'd 'local' or gang member who is no-longer with us. 'Damn, they killed Jane Doe!'. This works perfectly fine in the vast majority of situations as-long as the roleplayers involved are up-to-par with server standards. We'd still portray a realistic interpretation of the loss of someone we knew. Me, and my faction have no issues with this & also don't mind if we end up having an interaction with the player we've killed in the future.

 

7 hours ago, Brett said:

Okay, let me start off by saying something that everyone has disagreements on. A lot of people will either push for more CK's or more PK's, depending on how people view the difference between the two and what they believe will create a proper RP environment and there have been numerous debates about that by numerous amounts of people. Why that's important to this, is that it's really hard to even engage in those debates, if nobody can even really define what the "real," difference between a PK and CK is. And not having a concrete answer, is not helping to guide proper discussions on PK and CK policy in general. And to your point here, "The only time this should rightly harm your immersion to a notable degree is in the special cases where you're forced to kill someone closely integrated to your RP - in such cases, you should simply apply for, or obtain CK permissions on that person prior to killing them - or file a report afterward on the situation and explain to the administration how the continuation of their roleplay directly affects yours. " Why should they apply for a CK permission, or ask them for permission, or get an admin if a "PK," classifies as a kill on it's own? By your own standards here, this isn't a problem as a PK style murder is the exact same as a CK style murder and it's simply your opinion that they should be CK'd because it would in your mind, "make more sense." And that funnily enough, supports the point of the suggestion because by defining what even the real point and purpose that differentiates a PK from a CK, would provide a better backdrop for future policies and problems associated with the lack of clarification that's being left up to flexibility. 

 

The example I'm using in this statement is mostly pertaining to two long-time friends who somehow have deep ties - yet aren't involved in any factions. Here's the thing - if two people from the same faction decide to kill eachother? That'll be enforced as a CK by the faction leader, or they'll work out the specific terms of the PK. In other cases, they simply have to deal with their loss of contacts/information that's tied to that character/& if that isn't possible? Again, work out the terms and you may find yourself surprised with what workarounds you could possibly figure out.

 

The only thing I could see changing to 'patch' this loophole would be to enforce CKs across the board, which I doubt anyone wants. You're right, PKs can get messy under certain circumstances, how-ever, even the ones you've listed are easily dealt with by switching with an NPC. The ones that can't, are unfortunate worst-case scenarios which don't happen nearly as often as the others.

 

Yes, there can be loopholes & the system isn't perfect - how-ever, I, like many others who participate in illegal roleplay wouldn't enjoy investing into a character only to have it CK'd over a random drive-by shooting, or any sort of gang retaliation. I'd be much less invested into a character I knew had the opportunity to be murdered over something fairly silly. Am I still going to roleplay sufficient fear ICly of these unfortunate events taking place? Yes, absolutely. It's just the fact that  I, like what I'd assume the majority of GTAW wouldn't like their characters to be dispensable & the general RP quality would not go up, but go down the drain under these circumstances.

 

The fun of roleplay is interacting with other characters, whether the situation is hostile, or not, and the repercussions of some of the suggestions pitched here limit those interactions. Tell me, have you ever seen a faction in the midst of a CK war? Everyone's on edge, everyone's hiding, no-one wants to show their face unless everyone's outside. The RP turns boring, no-one leaves the hood, everyone's standing guard and shaking in their seats in the hope that the character they've spent the last couple of months working up doesn't catch a sudden bullet to the head. We want crime, we want gangs, we want to continue on with our lives even after a loss.

 

To end this; the majority of murders on GTAW world are between characters who have had little to no interaction with eachother, and when it's two players that play an integral part to eachothers roleplay - it normally ends with a CK.

 

In the vast majority of cases, the 'two realities' concept works absolutely fine and is much less impactful than what many are making it out to be. I can't but feel like your experience with these instances is a bit limited. It's much easier to understand when you've put it to use enough. Sadly, it's just one of those things which comes with experience and is worth turning a blind eye for the benefits it provides.

Edited November 17, 2019 by MikeTheMike

[Brett]

@MikeTheMike

 

And you just proved my point with this.

 

Quote

"If your friend is PKed infront of you? Then the event leading up to him being PKed simply didn't happen. The player that was PK'd didn't do it."

 

So even though the "PKer," in this situation would be 100% icly liable for the crime from an IC standpoint and IC actions would occur in order to get him arrested, charged, and thrown in jail. And the PKer themselves would most likely be ICly boasting, and if they were with other friends celebrating this so-called crime they all just fully witnessed (As you can't just randomly kill people, as that would be DM so there has to be some IC connection as to why you PK'd this person). You're telling me that this person didn't actually commit a crime at all, and all events that I roleplayed previously before you showed up to kill my friend are just null and void. I'm sorry but this just makes no sense, in no world does this make sense. Why the hell should I void MY roleplay if I didn't get PK'd but my friend did? There is absolutely no rule, or any prohibition against me rolling up on your later to try and kill you had I not been killed, and you're trying to  claim that the whole situation should just be forgotten. The only person who wins in this interaction is the PKer, while everyone else has to probably void large bits of their own roleplay and absolutely mindfuck themselves just to satisfy the PKer. Because under that logic, this is truly the only person who benefits from this so-called "RP," that you claim also never really happened in the first place. Really contradictory.

 

Quote

"It'd be impossible to define and outline every possible condition as every one is unique. In the situation where a PK may conflict with roleplay"

Nobody is advocating to do this. All this suggestion does is define the difference between what a PK really is, compared to a CK. People can internally work out the IC justifications from these definitions of what happened in specific situations, but at least there is a defined default that makes sense that people have to start from. 

 

Quote

When this happens, we simply project our relationship/feelings toward that person to an NPC'd 'local' or gang member who is no-longer with us. 'Damn, they killed Jane Doe!'. This works perfectly fine in the vast majority of situations as-long as the roleplayers involved are up-to-par with server standar ds. We'd still portray a realistic interpretation of the loss of someone we knew. Me, and my faction have no issues with this & also don't mind if we end up having an interaction with the player we've killed in the future.

But it isn't working like that. If you kill someone right now in game, you WILL ICLY carry the brunt of murdering a SPECIFIC victim. So if the player is John Doe, the police will legit charge you with John Doe's murder. Which they will have all his IC data. The police aren't going like (Oh well he was PK'd, so change our casefile details to John Doe so when we arrest your character we act like you murdered some random NPC.) No, we're going to be naming the victim you killed and all the circumstances that lead to their death. Which for a PK, makes zero sense to be doing as this person still lives, And even if your gang agrees to one thing, everyone else on the server may be agreeing to another. Hence creating two entirely separate realities of a single event. If I witness someone kill another person in the game, I'm going to icly attach YOUR character that I saw murder someone to that particular crime in question. And RP future interactions with your character in that manner. Yet as you mentioned above, you wouldn't  have done such a crime and your side agrees with these interpretations, yet I as a lone individual did not and am roleplaying different. One of us is powergaming by definition in this situation, and you can't like I have said previously say that both my character and your character are correct when holding such contradictory  stances and asking for them to be OOCLy supported even if we had to get an admin. It's impossible.

 

Quote

The example I'm using in this statement is mostly pertaining to two long-time friends who somehow have deep ties - yet aren't involved in any factions. Here's the thing - if two people from the same faction decide to kill eachother? That'll be enforced as a CK by the faction leader, or they'll work out the specific terms of the PK. In other cases, they simply have to deal with their loss of contacts/information that's tied to that character/& if that isn't possible? Again, work out the terms and you may find yourself surprised with what workarounds you could possibly figure out.

Again, this only legit works between the parties involved. It doesn't include anyonee who may have witnessed the incident but are not privied to the internal agreements. So even if Me and You if we were the parties involved in a PK situation worked out some agreement, 5 other people unconnected with our factions and whatever w ho also saw the shootout would not know of said agreement, nor could they, and would take other things out of it and RP accordingly. So if they want to RP that they saw ME die, and YOU be the murderer in a PK situation and try and report you in to the authorities or do something to you themselves, there is no OOC basis you can stop them or point to that disallows them from doing so. And even getting an admin for this situation won't help, because again this is undefined and people will be basically making up rules and stuff on the fly complicating matters more. 

 

Quote

The only thing I could see changing to 'patch' this loophole would be to enforce CKs across the board, which I doubt anyone wants. You're right, PKs can get messy under certain circumstances, how-ever, even the ones you've listed are easily dealt with by switching with an NPC. The ones that can't, are unfortunate worst-case scenarios which don't happen nearly as often as the others.

They're not easily dealt with by switching to an NPC, because again. YOUR character the murderer, would have committed a murder, who's murdered victim would ICly be all over your case with associated DNA evidence of said victim to prove this person was murdered, yet they're still walking around all normally. Switching to an NPC, doesn't negate this simple reality. 

 

Quote

Yes, there can be loopholes & the system isn't perfect - how-ever, I, like many others who participate in illegal roleplay wouldn't enjoy investing into a character only to have it CK'd over a random drive-by shooting, or any sort of gang retaliation.

This is not at all, what the topic is advocating nor about. Nor would defining PK's and CK's have anything to do with this. This is a red herring. 

 

Quote

The fun of roleplay is interacting with other characters, whether the situation is hostile, or not, and the repercussions of some of the suggestions pitched here limit those interactions. Tell me, have you ever seen a faction in the midst of a CK war?

Again, red herring. Absolutely has no basis to this suggestion. PK's and CK's Defined or not.

 

Quote

To end this; the majority of murders on GTAW world are between characters who have had little to no interaction with eachother, and when it's two players that play an integral part to eachothers roleplay - it normally ends with a CK.

Cool, but it goes beyond the two players. It involves the players victim and murderer, any random bypassers who witness said events, any law enforcement personnel who investigate said incident, any EMT/Coroners who report medical data on the incident, any court personnel who charge the incident, etc. There's a reason I don't agree with the stance of "Well the two players will work it out." This goes far beyond even those two players, and you're not going to pm every witness of a situation to be like "Yo, we're rping this like x. Just want you updated." AKA: People will leave an incident with two realities and use those realities in the IC which again, are contradictory.

 

Quote

In the vast majority of cases, the 'two realities' concept works absolutely fine and is much less impactful than what many are making it out to be. I can't but feel like your experience with these instances is a bit limited. It's much easier to understand when you've put it to use enough. Sadly, it's just one of those things which comes with experience and is worth turning a blind eye for the benefits it provides.

I've been roleplaying on these platforms since 2013, I've been a criminal, law enforcement, done terrorism, swat breaches, some military RP, etc. I've been involved in numerous PK/CK situations more so then I could count, so I can assure you that my experience is in no way "limited." Having two different realities being lived because it's not defined, is not fine. The ONLY person who benefits from having a system like this is the person who tries to murder people just for the "lolz." Because like you said before, they never actually did it if they succeed. So by your own standard, whenever there is a PK everyone should simple ignore it because it didn't happen from your character. Or is the standard that it did happen, but nobody else is allowed to RP further with it but the murderer themselves? I'll repeat.

 

This...makes...zero...sense. And honestly, if we're going to go as far as to say that PK's and CK's are equivalent in "murdered," status. Then what honestly is the difference between them? Why should anyone EVER go for CK's, if it's all going to be considered IC murder. That would make CK absolutely no different from a PK (Which is how it is currently.) If by killing you in a random drive-by or something is going to get me a First Degree Murder charge, the same as me filing a CK app and going through the motions to kill someone for a CK all end in the EXACT same IC consequences, then really what is the point? The reason I propose the defining the way I am, is for two. One, it actually resolves the Two Reality issue so everyone is on ONE coordinated playing field for how to handle these incidents. And two, it actually makes a FIRM distinction between what the REAL difference is between a PK and CK. Because honestly, if PK's are the same as CK's in the IC world. Then why have them separate? Why kick up such a stir about being so scared of a CK, but not scared of a PK? We all know why, it's because people are actually afraid of CK's. And tbh, you should be because just like IRL you're afraid of DYING because you only get 1 life and actually take precautions and stuff to try and keep it safe. A PK just allows you to laugh it off, not RP proper fear, and just get away with senseless violence (Not everyone does this, but in my experience it tends to be the majority), that honestly don't provide much true RP and usually are done with stupid reasons to begin with. But again, I'm not here to argue Pro CK or Pro PK. I'm just trying to explain to you that there is a reality we need to face about this being undefined, and why we should be advocating one universal standard and not have hundreds of people making up various realities about the same incident for it to make sense. It's mind boggling, and it needs to stop. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Brett

[mikethemike]

1 hour ago, Brett said:

@MikeTheMike

 

And you just proved my point with this.

 

 

So even though the "PKer," in this situation would be 100% icly liable for the crime from an IC standpoint and IC actions would occur in order to get him arrested, charged, and thrown in jail. And the PKer themselves would most likely be ICly boasting, and if they were with other friends celebrating this so-called crime they all just fully witnessed (As you can't just randomly kill people, as that would be DM so there has to be some IC connection as to why you PK'd this person). You're telling me that this person didn't actually commit a crime at all, and all events that I roleplayed previously before you showed up to kill my friend are just null and void. I'm sorry but this just makes no sense, in no world does this make sense. Why the hell should I void MY roleplay if I didn't get PK'd but my friend did? There is absolutely no rule, or any prohibition against me rolling up on your later to try and kill you had I not been killed, and you're trying to  claim that the whole situation should just be forgotten. The only person who wins in this interaction is the PKer, while everyone else has to probably void large bits of their own roleplay and absolutely mindfuck themselves just to satisfy the PKer. Because under that logic, this is truly the only person who benefits from this so-called "RP," that you claim also never really happened in the first place. Really contradictory.

The person still faces the consequences for killing that person. I'm not entirely sure where you're trying to go with this. These inconsistencies can be easily brushed off. This is simply how GTARP functions and the majority don't mind these trivial facts. I'm still very much immersed in my character and their interactions.

 

There's a reason why PKs aren't completely outlined, it'd be impossible to accurately account for every situation as every situation would need to be treated uniquely to be properly handled. The same reason we don't have every possible deathmatching scenario listed - the rule is left up to interpretation aslong as it follows the common-knowledge guidelines 

 

I just don't think you fully understand the internals of how everything fits together & it'd require many-many-many more walls of text going over every little detail of how every faction and person deals with the death of someone. Simply put, it doesn't matter if a dead persons DNA is somewhere whilst he's walking around elsewhere. The PD knows how to handle that situation properly and fairly to all parties involved. The PD is losing no sleep knowing that person is continuing to walk around, I'm sure it doesn't even cross their minds. It would be impossible for them to investigate the complete circumstances behind someones death - dig into their background, and line up potential suspects for every murder that takes place in Los Santos.

 

This is a game and will never completely emulate real-life, we trade certain aspects of realism for fun and fairness to others in a way which best fits the gamemode. If you enjoy a more 1:1 experience, there are plenty of other communities that roleplay through forums. This is simply our interpretation of roleplay and it's what we enjoy, and what works for us, and for it to be handled any-other way would require dramatic changes to support them.

 

If you could suggest something which fixes the issues you've outlined without changing the dynamic of the entire game-mode, I'm all ears.

 

1 hour ago, Brett said:

@MikeTheMike

I've been roleplaying on these platforms since 2013, I've been a criminal, law enforcement, done terrorism, swat breaches, some military RP, etc. I've been involved in numerous PK/CK situations more so then I could count, so I can assure you that my experience is in no way "limited." Having two different realities being lived because it's not defined, is not fine. The ONLY person who benefits from having a system like this is the person who tries to murder people just for the "lolz." Because like you said before, they never actually did it if they succeed. So by your own standard, whenever there is a PK everyone should simple ignore it because it didn't happen from your character. Or is the standard that it did happen, but nobody else is allowed to RP further with it but the murderer themselves? I'll repeat.

 

I spent two years administrating and managing the server that came prior to GTAW & I can assure you many of these are hypothetical situations that have no grasp on the reality of the game-mode & the ones that aren't are quite trivial and really shouldn't harm your experience in anything besides a cosmetic way. it's how the server functions. I'm also not entirely sure where you're getting the idea that someone could kill without IC consequences, or the situation is entirely void. I'd re-read what I wrote above.

 

& If a player is simply killing for the 'lulz', deathmatching is obviously something you can report for.

Edited November 17, 2019 by MikeTheMike

[mikethemike]

1 hour ago, Brett said:

his...makes...zero...sense. And honestly, if we're going to go as far as to say that PK's and CK's are equivalent in "murdered," status. Then what honestly is the difference between them? Why should anyone EVER go for CK's, if it's all going to be considered IC murder. That would make CK absolutely no different from a PK (Which is how it is currently.) If by killing you in a random drive-by or something is going to get me a First Degree Murder charge, the same as me filing a CK app and going through the motions to kill someone for a CK all end in the EXACT same IC consequences, then really what is the point?

The majority of CKs stem from internal faction conflicts. PKs are more for minor, less impactful deaths that can be easily brushed off/ such as a fight between two gang factions where one dies in an attack - or, someone being killed for calling the police after witnessing a robbery. CKs are for more heavy weighted situations where your faction leader found out you've been informing the police of internal dealings within your faction.

 

The line between the two can't be simply defined, as it's entirely situational and depends on your personal experience. Remember, we're emulating real life here, and that's clearly no easy nor realistically accomplishable task.

 

I'm sorry, but. I've noticed that the majority of your faction experience has been within Legal Roleplay, when these decisions more directly impact illegal roleplay than the former. It's hard to outline the complete dynamics and situations the stem from the systems that are currently at-work, but I can promise you they work perfectly fine for what's needed and wanted.

[Brett]

22 minutes ago, MikeTheMike said:

"Simply put, it doesn't matter if a dead persons DNA is somewhere whilst he's walking around elsewhere."

That sentence alone, means that we're just not going to agree here. If a "dead," persons DNA is being cataloged while this person is not dead, then logically this person isn't a "dead person." If you don't see the contradiction in this, and why this poses problems, I'm afraid we're just not going to agree as you don't see this as an issue. Because the statement alone makes no sense on it's own two feet as how is a dead person, well-...not dead. And to your point of, "If you could suggest something which fixes the issues you've outlined without changing the dynamic of the entire game-mode, I'm all ears." I did lay out something that fixes my issues, that doesn't change the entire dynamic of the game mode. The game mode is roleplay. I haven't restricted you from being able to do drive bys, full out CK's, or even PK's. All I've done is advocate a standard of what actually a PK is on a server-wide level, to clear up an inconsistency. Without it being defined, the problem of two realities never gets solved. It's truly the only way you can solve it. And to this;

 

Quote

I spent two years administrating and managing the server that came prior to GTAW & I can assure you many of these are hypothetical situations that have no grasp on the reality of the game-mode & the ones that aren't are quite trivial and really shouldn't harm your experience in anything besides a cosmetic way. it's how the server functions. I'm also not entirely sure where you're getting the idea that someone could kill without IC consequences, or the situation is entirely void. I'd re-read what I wrote above.

Many would disagree, including some in this thread who have noted similar problems. But like i said, if you inherently believe that there is nothing wrong with a dead person not actually being dead, then we're just not going to see eye to eye on this. 

[Midwest]

42 minutes ago, MikeTheMike said:

 Simply put, it doesn't matter if a dead persons DNA is somewhere whilst he's walking around elsewhere. The PD knows how to handle that situation properly and fairly to all parties involved. The PD is losing no sleep knowing that person is continuing to walk around, I'm sure it doesn't even cross their minds. It would be impossible for them to investigate the complete circumstances behind someones death - dig into their background, and line up potential suspects for every murder that takes place in Los Santos.

 

You can't be dead and not dead, it literally does not work like that irl or ig. If you're dead, you're not alive, if you're alive, you're not dead.

As someone who's roleplayed a investigator before, interacting with people I've personally dealt with dead or seen die, is severly stupid and the thoughts do 100% cross your mind that you're roleplaying or interacting with someone that you've interacted with as a dead person, now leaving a gigantic gaping hole in your roleplay. This is even more so a reality with people who roleplay specialized investigations, such as detectives investigating organized crime and gangs. Chances are in that scenario, you're going to be roleplaying with people you've seen dead countless times, which means you've got to rp random shit that didn't actually happen and make up NPC stuff (when the situation was fully rped, and not npced)

[mikethemike]

10 minutes ago, Midwest said:

You can't be dead and not dead, it literally does not work like that irl or ig. If you're dead, you're not alive, if you're alive, you're not dead.

As someone who's roleplayed a investigator before, interacting with people I've personally dealt with dead or seen die, is severly stupid and the thoughts do 100% cross your mind that you're roleplaying or interacting with someone that you've interacted with as a dead person, now leaving a gigantic gaping hole in your roleplay. This is even more so a reality with people who roleplay specialized investigations, such as detectives investigating organized crime and gangs. Chances are in that scenario, you're going to be roleplaying with people you've seen dead countless times, which means you've got to rp random shit that didn't actually happen and make up NPC stuff (when the situation was fully rped, and not npced)

Alright, do you have any suggestions to fix this issue? Because, anything we could possibly do to fix those issues outlined would require a complete revamp of how things operate & I'm sure it would come with its own downsides.

Edited November 17, 2019 by MikeTheMike

[Midwest]

12 minutes ago, MikeTheMike said:

Alright, so what is your suggestion to fix this issue?

My views are a bit more on the extreme side but, I think if someone has a valid reason to kill your character, and the roleplay is done up to par, it should be a CK. Just chipping in because it was brought up that people rping investigative roles might not think about it.

 

Also, defining a more strict meaning behind PK's and CK's does not revamp how things operate. At the most, more people CK because it's more properly defined vs a PK, and their properties roll over to other characters or get sold back to the server, the factions(if any) will fall or their position will get taken by someone else, they make a new char, life keeps going on.

 

As for my view on it, yes it would change things, I didn't voice my opinion on the subject specifically because it's not the full intention of the server and would not benefit it in what it's trying to achieve. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Midwest

[DLimit]

I heavily vouch for the idea of transitioning any PK into a CK, as it enhances one's roleplay experience, ensuring that the highest standards of roleplay are maintained. If a character was randomly executed through Deathmatching or based on poor reasons, then it'll be argued as a forum report to determine whether the CK was legitimate.

MANY disagree with me, proclaiming that their character will lose their assets etc... This won't be an issue if one is capable of attaining a FREE character name change after a CK. Finally, regarding the disruption of one's R.P. development? Well, you should've been secure with one's actions. Civilian-Bystander casualties, within itself, are just as horrific as the targeted victim's casualties... It should be treated as such.
 

Majority of PKs should be "severely wounded", causing the player to undergo amnesia of the event rather than to be "deceased", allowing the R.P. to continue as the subject being severely wounded with the suspect undergoing attempted murder charges. Countless R.P. servers outside of GTA treat "PKs" as severe wounds with major consequences, as it doesn't interfere with any of the R.P. beyond the two parties. All bystanders, investigators, and judicial staff members will perceive it as a severe injury from an attempted murder charge.

Edited November 17, 2019 by DLimit

[Ted]

As someone who has experience with dealing with situations that could always escalate into CK's; it seems like a good idea, but the execution is almost always flawed and leads to a degradation of RP. People will always when presented this option choose to immediately go to shooting and CK's rather than negotiations and proper escalation. People almost always become far more rash in their decisions as it can be sorted out afterward. In other situations, it leads to war essentially becoming a fight of who can strike first. It degrades the RP quality as situations can then become far more easily solved with a bullet rather than having to go through bureaucratic channels.