Redefine PK's and CK's Officially

[mala]

I'm honestly not sure how to make a better system than the one we have now. It can be confusing, it can be messy, and it definitely makes things complicated with court and criminal records.
However, if a character gets killed because of a random situation such as a drive by or a carjacking gone wrong, I don't feel like classifying it as a CK would be fair to the person who put countless time and effort into that character. And classifying it as an "attempted murder", and creating the odd reality where an actual death is written off as "maybe they died, maybe they didn't" creates an even BIGGER grey area that would lead to more confusion, and more reports.

Can the victim that was, in fact, murdered recall ANY information about the event? Can they be questioned for the details of the "Attempted Murder" case?

 

We can't have every actual murder turn into a CK, because then the server will be full of short-lived, replaceable characters that have little depth and little development. Yes, plenty of characters will continue to live long lives because they don't get out much, don't really interact outside of a certain circle, they properly rp fear and comply, or are just lucky enough not to get thrown into a situation with someone who's just hungry to DM. The GtaW murder rate is FAR higher than any realism would allow, and I think people would just be CK'd left and right, to stop the victim from speaking to the cops.

 

TLDR, having a PK count as an attempted murder seems even messier and more confusing to court/criminal cases than the system we have now. And all kills being CKs will make it a much more hostile environment, with a lot more disposable, lackluster characters.

[Brett]

13 minutes ago, Havana said:

I'm honestly not sure how to make a better system than the one we have now. It can be confusing, it can be messy, and it definitely makes things complicated with court and criminal records.
However, if a character gets killed because of a random situation such as a drive by or a carjacking gone wrong, I don't feel like classifying it as a CK would be fair to the person who put countless time and effort into that character. And classifying it as an "attempted murder", and creating the odd reality where an actual death is written off as "maybe they died, maybe they didn't" creates an even BIGGER grey area that would lead to more confusion, and more reports.

Can the victim that was, in fact, murdered recall ANY information about the event? Can they be questioned for the details of the "Attempted Murder" case?

 

We can't have every actual murder turn into a CK, because then the server will be full of short-lived, replaceable characters that have little depth and little development. Yes, plenty of characters will continue to live long lives because they don't get out much, don't really interact outside of a certain circle, they properly rp fear and comply, or are just lucky enough not to get thrown into a situation with someone who's just hungry to DM. The GtaW murder rate is FAR higher than any realism would allow, and I think people would just be CK'd left and right, to stop the victim from speaking to the cops.

 

TLDR, having a PK count as an attempted murder seems even messier and more confusing to court/criminal cases than the system we have now. And all kills being CKs will make it a much more hostile environment, with a lot more disposable, lackluster characters.

This suggestion isn't about turning all PK's into CK's. Nor vice-versa that is a different conversation. The only thing we're doing, is making them be defined. But let me smash through some of your points here;

 

Quote

However, if a character gets killed because of a random situation such as a drive by or a carjacking gone wrong, I don't feel like classifying it as a CK would be fair to the person who put countless time and effort into that character. And classifying it as an "attempted murder", and creating the odd reality where an actual death is written off as "maybe they died, maybe they didn't" creates an even BIGGER grey area that would lead to more confusion, and more reports.

A death requires a victim. A victim in our world has to be a legitimate player. And a legitimate player to be truly dead, must be-....truly dead. If I got fingerprints from a scene and it comes back to MY character who was murdered as an example, there's no way I can justify anything else. My unique fingerprints are on a murder scene, showing I was killed. Yet I'm walking around days later like I'm fine? This makes zero sense, and I cannot say this enough. This doesn't create a bigger grey area, it resolves the grey area. It'll make PK's mean that someone didn't actually fully die when you thought, because people aren't rply checking pulses after they shoot someone to ensure they are fully dead, they're going to be running away soon after the act to avoid capture and that leaves enough time for stuff to happen to continue and RP from. This grey area you're saying will be created, honestly has no real basis in reality nor can I possibly see how this would make the system worse. You would have to explain that more for me to take it more seriously.

 

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Can the victim that was, in fact, murdered recall ANY information about the event? Can they be questioned for the details of the "Attempted Murder" case?

Under this sytem, they wouldn't be "Murdered." Murdered implies you actually have been killed, which by definition with this you wouldn't have been. So with that in mind, you being a victim of a crime where someone attempted to murder you could be used in the IC. If you legit forget clothing or some other detail of the scene, then you RP that. None of this "My character would RPly remember x." It's either you remember, or you don't. And yes, just like a victim of any crime, they can be questioned for details of said crime in like the hospital or in a follow up. This would make things more simple. It's hard to do follow ups or hospital questionings if we're supposed to act like the PK'd person is dead. That means we have absolutely no victim to question, and they person killed can't act like "Oh, that was my friend. I saw the whole incident." The only person this current system benefits, is the person doing the PK's. Everyone else suffers, because they have to RP an entirely separate reality with hoops and challenges that just make no sense, just to make whoever did the PK happy they could do a PK. It's stupid. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Brett

[mala]

1 hour ago, Brett said:

This suggestion isn't about turning all PK's into CK's. Nor vice-versa that is a different conversation. The only thing we're doing, is making them be defined. But let me smash through some of your points here;

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It'll make PK's mean that someone didn't actually fully die when you thought, because people aren't rply checking pulses after they shoot someone to ensure they are fully dead, they're going to be running away soon after the act to avoid capture and that leaves enough time for stuff to happen to continue and RP from. This grey area you're saying will be created, honestly has no real basis in reality nor can I possibly see how this would make the system worse. You would have to explain that more for me to take it more seriously.

Okay, understanding better now. If it's just a matter of legal classifications, then by all means, change PK's to Attempted Murder. It'd work out as long as the party that actually got scriptly killed has no recollection of it.

They can avoid their past murderer by learning about the person's record/attempted murder charge via the public court system that's now even being broadcasted on social media. The same people with several murder charges would just be walking around with a record loaded with Attempted Murder charges instead. Though, I'm sure there'll be less of this going around with the more DM-hungry characters rp'ing in the prison to come.
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Seems like the second point was a misunderstanding then and can be dismissed. But if someone ate an entire magazine to the chest and head and were scriptly killed and not just downed, with no immediate medical attention, I'd consider it powergaming and metagaming if they survived it and went on to be questioned.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Havana

[Jedai]

I just don't see how this would work honestly.  As it's been pointed out before, people would basically HAVE to CK if they've been shot enough times in vital areas. While anyone can survive a singular shot to the head, all this system would do is further add work load to an administration team that gets enough reports as it is because people are inherently going to want people to roleplay realistically however in turn, people will never truly roleplay the aim their character would have. As someone who's played an FPS game at a Amateur/Semi-Pro level, even I sometimes struggle to not instinctively aim to hit people in the head during a shootout. People would get lined up with 6 headshots and honestly, I'd be very disturbed if people lived through that. At that point, we'd then have to tell people to conform with the standards of roleplay we're attempting to achieve and preserve here, that they'd need to be roleplaying injuries correctly and not getting shot 9 times like 50 Cent in one hour and then out drinking and partying the next. 

 

I agree that PK and CKs need to be better defined but I also feel like unless people start CKing a lot more, something most people dont want to do, we either have to go with insert immersion breaking compromise here to satisfy people. 

[MasterChief]

16 hours ago, Brett said:

Make an official topic detailing PK's and CK's, defining PK's as Attempted Murders and not Full Murders. Allowing victims to  continue roleplaying if they've ever been shot, and deal with IC repercussions to encourage further RP off incidents that occur.

This is not intended as criticism, just trying to really hash out what you're suggesting.

 

If I'm an innocent bystander in a drive by shooting that gets shot several times (within the script I'm actually killed), where in real life this would 100% end my life, would this rule negate that fact and simply change the result of my death? You're saying that PK's are now attempted murders, which imply that they would still be alive. Please correct my understanding, if I'm misunderstanding that point.

 

Let's say I'm crossing the road in a crosswalk and there is a police chase, when a car comes speeding through the intersection and barrels through my character's body at 60+ mph. This would no doubt leave me dead in the street, there's no way you could justify living through that. This PK would now simply be an attempted murder, where I actually don't die? Don't you feel that's pretty much powergaming?

Edited November 15, 2019 by Kestalas

[KFN]

Current system sucks cause I can just pop off someone I've been rping with for ages and halve of their life suddenly just becomes a complete void, and if you've ever mentioned about said pker to another person before they can then ask questions along the lines of "how's so and so" and you just have to go "lol who?" acting as if the other person was fucking retard or something.

 

I reckon a better system than forgetting the character completely would be the whole "attempted murder thing" but your injuries were so bad that you forget about the situation what lead to you getting popped off, but you still remember the character as a whole- they'll likely just disassociate themselves with you if they are smart after finding out you are still alive.

 

I don't know the perfect solution but I know that the current pk "system" if you can even call it that is just pretty trash, doesn't work and depending on how important a character is in your characters life it can almost entirely wipe your characters development.

I definitely think the current system doesn't work, its completely trash. Just change it please, its rubbish.

Edited November 15, 2019 by KFN

[Brett]

4 hours ago, Kestalas said:

This is not intended as criticism, just trying to really hash out what you're suggesting.

 

If I'm an innocent bystander in a drive by shooting that gets shot several times (within the script I'm actually killed), where in real life this would 100% end my life, would this rule negate that fact and simply change the result of my death? You're saying that PK's are now attempted murders, which imply that they would still be alive. Please correct my understanding, if I'm misunderstanding that point.

 

Let's say I'm crossing the road in a crosswalk and there is a police chase, when a car comes speeding through the intersection and barrels through my character's body at 60+ mph. This would no doubt leave me dead in the street, there's no way you could justify living through that. This PK would now simply be an attempted murder, where I actually don't die? Don't you feel that's pretty much powergaming?

On your first point, yes. It could be rp'd as someone from like an apartment or residence called 911 after the shots and you blacked out after losing blood and the EMS later came and saved you or something, you can make this up since you would wake up later at the hospital. Same with your second point. Do I think that it may be powergaming to live through all that, maybe. But honestly that's just someones own RP that unless there is a different discussion on how people are allowed to RP this kinda stuff, this suggestion isn't really for that. Personally, I believe you should self-ck in those instances but that's not my call nor what the server has set up. Hope that clarifies at least my own opinion on it. 

 

5 hours ago, Jedai said:

I just don't see how this would work honestly.  As it's been pointed out before, people would basically HAVE to CK if they've been shot enough times in vital areas. While anyone can survive a singular shot to the head, all this system would do is further add work load to an administration team that gets enough reports as it is because people are inherently going to want people to roleplay realistically however in turn, people will never truly roleplay the aim their character would have. As someone who's played an FPS game at a Amateur/Semi-Pro level, even I sometimes struggle to not instinctively aim to hit people in the head during a shootout. People would get lined up with 6 headshots and honestly, I'd be very disturbed if people lived through that. At that point, we'd then have to tell people to conform with the standards of roleplay we're attempting to achieve and preserve here, that they'd need to be roleplaying injuries correctly and not getting shot 9 times like 50 Cent in one hour and then out drinking and partying the next. 

 

I agree that PK and CKs need to be better defined but I also feel like unless people start CKing a lot more, something most people dont want to do, we either have to go with insert immersion breaking compromise here to satisfy people. 

RPing injuries, and being shot in various different areas is a conversation not really apart of this suggestion as this isn't going to fundamentally change that in either direction. I mean even if we're trying to be a bit realistic on headshots, they're always going to be problematic. If I shoot someone at point blank range in the head, and everyone can acknowledge it was a head shot but I was never PK'd, most will just shrug it off and act like it didn't actually cause a headshot when clearly it was. And that extends far before you even get into PK or CK territory, yet it's the same problem of realism. Maybe this will increase the load on administrators, maybe not. But without even defining officially what a PK and CK is, the lines of how to RP them properly and what it really means is also extremely blurry and that's all I want to correct. The convo about people taking injuries and not properly rping, is a conversation that is entirely separate and although a reasonable conversation, not one I'm particularly wading into with this nor does it really affect it either way from the current.

 

As for the last part, I personally as I know I mentioned in a much earlier post don't mind CK's becoming more common. I actually think it would lead to a decrease in people just doing stupid PK's just to act like some unrealistic badass, and curb a lot of bad behaviors. If someone legitimately wants to RP killing someone, then I don't see why they wouldn't want to go through the actual effort to ensure it's legitimately a "kill." Unless they're just trying to show off in the IC, by how well they can use their Cowboy skills or Navy Seal training to pop multiple people in the head with a point and click mechanic, I've never seen this actually really create a lot of legitimate roleplay that at least make sense. At the end of the day, the server sets the standard of RP. And most people are going to fall behind a standard, if they want to play and have a good time. And I'm sure that a good amount of PK's currently happening, are PK's that honestly could've been avoided in favor of other creative or RP solutions to the problem that would've made for much better scenes. Regardless, before we can even have the CK/PK frequent or rare and how people feel. We just need it defined, and at least my suggestion gives it clarity from people to further argue how it'll be taken and used in maybe future threads. At least it's a start to fixing a problem that has existed for far too long.  

[mikethemike]

The PK system works perfectly fine in the vast majority of cases. We have to examine the current positives and negatives of the system. In my opinion, this suggestion only complicates things in more impactful ways than the long-standing system has, or does.

 

You cannot write rules to cater to every specific PK as the ones that'd need any sort of direction are entirely unique. The changes you've proposed would simply make things even more messy, and confusing. I'd imagine nearly every PK requiring some sort of admin intervention. We cannot RP gang shootouts as simply just being 'near-death'. On most of my characters, If I had nearly been killed by someone - or brutally attacked, I'd be inclined to retaliate. There's no reason why I'd just sit back and not start up an endless loop of me vs someone else where we somehow manage to not murder eachother. If my character didn't intend to kill someone, then they simply wouldn't kill them. Paramedics already serve the purpose of reviving those who'd realistically be able to survive the situation - anything else besides this occurring is harmful to roleplay.

 

The only time this should rightly harm your immersion to a notable degree is in the special cases where you're forced to kill someone closely integrated to your RP - in such cases, you should simply apply for, or obtain CK permissions on that person prior to killing them - or file a report afterward on the situation and explain to the administration how the continuation of their roleplay directly affects yours. These cases in my experience are quite rare and not worth up-lifting the rest of the system for. As a roleplayer, I'm sure you possess the creativity, if necessary to justify the interaction between you & someone that's previously been PKed.

 

I also have no issues with being charged with the murder of someone who had PK'ed & you shouldn't either. That's development for your character, a story and a situation that your character had participated in. I, like everyone else have NPC'd aspects of my characters story when creating them, this feels no different in concept to that & no less satisfying.

 

All-in-all, your issues you aim to fix are outweighed by the issues and complications this suggestion would bring.

 

Roleplay should always be a seamless mix between realism and fun.

Edited November 16, 2019 by MikeTheMike

[Tank]

Why not role-play an unnamed character died in situations like you described in the post? However that wouldn't solve issues with you dying and your friends wanting to retaliate. That'd create two realities.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Tank

[Brett]

9 minutes ago, Tank said:

Why not role-play an unnamed character died in situations like you described in the post? However that wouldn't solve issues with you dying and your friends wanting to retaliate. That'd create two realities.

And creating two realities like that is the problem. How exactly do avenge your "friend," in an IC RP scene who is dead, yet on the block talking to you days later? This is what doesn't make sense. 

 

1 hour ago, MikeTheMike said:

The PK system works perfectly fine in the vast majority of cases. We have to examine the current positives and negatives of the system. In my opinion, this suggestion only complicates things in more impactful ways than the long-standing system has, or does.

 

You cannot write rules to cater to every specific PK as the ones that'd need any sort of direction are entirely unique. The changes you've proposed would simply make things even more messy, and confusing. I'd imagine nearly every PK requiring some sort of admin intervention. We cannot RP gang shootouts as simply just being 'near-death'. On most of my characters, If I had nearly been killed by someone - or brutally attacked, I'd be inclined to retaliate. There's no reason why I'd just sit back and not start up an endless loop of me vs someone else where we somehow manage to not murder eachother. If my character didn't intend to kill someone, then they simply wouldn't kill them. Paramedics already serve the purpose of reviving those who'd realistically be able to survive the situation - anything else besides this occurring is harmful to roleplay.

 

The only time this should rightly harm your immersion to a notable degree is in the special cases where you're forced to kill someone closely integrated to your RP - in such cases, you should simply apply for, or obtain CK permissions on that person prior to killing them - or file a report afterward on the situation and explain to the administration how the continuation of their roleplay directly affects yours. These cases in my experience are quite rare and not worth up-lifting the rest of the system for. As a roleplayer, I'm sure you possess the creativity, if necessary to justify the interaction between you & someone that's previously been PKed.

 

I also have no issues with being charged with the murder of someone who had PK'ed & you shouldn't either. That's development for your character, a story and a situation that your character had participated in. I, like everyone else have NPC'd aspects of my characters story when creating them, this feels no different in concept to that & no less satisfying.

 

All-in-all, your issues you aim to fix are outweighed by the issues and complications this suggestion would bring.

 

Roleplay should always be a seamless mix between realism and fun.

Okay, let me start off by saying something that everyone has disagreements on. A lot of people will either push for more CK's or more PK's, depending on how people view the difference between the two and what they believe will create a proper RP environment and there have been numerous debates about that by numerous amounts of people. Why that's important to this, is that it's really hard to even engage in those debates, if nobody can even really define what the "real," difference between a PK and CK is. And not having a concrete answer, is not helping to guide proper discussions on PK and CK policy in general. And to your point here, "The only time this should rightly harm your immersion to a notable degree is in the special cases where you're forced to kill someone closely integrated to your RP - in such cases, you should simply apply for, or obtain CK permissions on that person prior to killing them - or file a report afterward on the situation and explain to the administration how the continuation of their roleplay directly affects yours. " Why should they apply for a CK permission, or ask them for permission, or get an admin if a "PK," classifies as a kill on it's own? By your own standards here, this isn't a problem as a PK style murder is the exact same as a CK style murder and it's simply your opinion that they should be CK'd because it would in your mind, "make more sense." And that funnily enough, supports the point of the suggestion because by defining what even the real point and purpose that differentiates a PK from a CK, would provide a better backdrop for future policies and problems associated with the lack of clarification that's being left up to flexibility. 

 

You cannot hold a belief that the current system is rather fine a majority of the time, but then make a point that there are cases in which a CK should be obtained when it involves someone closely integrated into your RP and/or get an admin to forcefully do it because the RP is affecting you. Take this quick situation;

 

1.) I'm hanging out with my friend on the block, who gets killed by Max in a driveby shooting and this results in a PK. Now to me, I've been hanging out with my friend all day and have witnessed a traumatic event and want some revenge. So when I come and kill your character since YOU are the murderer under the current system, can I force a CK on you because this has highly affected my RP and my character? 

 

By your own standard, everytime this situation occurs (And I guarantee you that it does a few times), this would be an auto justification for a CK. But wait! My friend who I swear got drive-byed by your character earlier who I'm mad at, is hanging around on the block again and trying to continue RPing with me in other ways? Now what am I to do? RP that all that time I rp'd with my friend before he got shot never happened so I can still act like he never died and give up my IC problems associated with being in a shooting where I didn't die, or do I just avoid this person at all cost lest I risk Powergaming. This answer right now, has no answer. Because there's no firm definition, and people are handling it in so many different ways that it makes zero sense. If one player takes these situations in the IC and tries to act on the shooting for example, and considers it a part of his roleplay, yet another player is doing the exact opposite and erasing entire parts of his RP to make the story makes sense, then clearly there is a massive problem. Because this effectively means that we're giving individual players the ability to create entirely conflicting avoidance of RP situations based on preference, rather then what actually happened. And this wouldn't even be so bad, if it weren't for the fact that even on a single situation multiple individuals end up doing multiple different things in order to make it have a flow in their own character stories. I'll do a quick add on to this story to prove this point;

 

2.) I'm hanging out with my friend on the block, who gets killed by Max in a driveby shooting and this results in a PK. Now with me at the time, was also three other friends who also happened to see said friend get shot and get PK'd. But as I want to continue RPing with my so-called "dead friend," I act as if it was just some NPC I was talking too and void a good chunk of previous roleplay I had with the friend to make my story make a bit of sense. But another friend wants to make the shooting of which they didn't get PK'd in, a part of their story and take IC actions in regards to it whether revenge or just future precaution. Who is right in this situation? Who's roleplay would be the "actual," story that an admin would accept out of a situation? Is it me, who self-voided half my roleplay previously so I could act like my friend never died so I can RP with him tomorrow? Or is it the other guy trying to use the shooting for IC character development? 

 

And that's the issue. You CANNOT say that both are equally right, because both are advocating WIDELY different interpretations out of the same scene. And one is ICly acting on it, while the other is OOCly erasing it, with both of them using it to advance a roleplay in a certain direction. This is what I'm against, and this is why I'm advocating a firm definition where people can work it out from there. Sorry for the massive text on this, but I really had to prove this point.