Redefine PK's and CK's Officially

[mala]

I feel like counting a PK as an "attempted murder" and letting the murdered party walk around with full knowledge of what happened, is a bit.. weird? Right now the vagueness behind a PK accommodates & allows people to work the details out. If people had the common decency to talk to each other after a PK to sort out what the character would forget, it wouldn't be so confusing.

 

A PK should be a PK. The victim is removed from the situation, and used as a nameless dead person in any further interactions or police/court matters, but the person can walk around on a "new life" as if they'd never known their murderer. Yes, there will be awkward run-ins, but it's still a "conditional" death in my opinion. Your character died because of a bad situation, bad luck, or to be removed from something, that wouldn't completely ruin that character.

Listing it in court/criminal proceedings as an 'attempted murder', when detectives likely found the body or evidence of it, also seems like a confusing reality. Maybe if you get arrested for a PK, and charged for murder, you ALSO get PK'd from that situation/"life", since your character would realistically go in for 10+ years?

 

And a CK is a CK, and a perma-death to the character, because something happened in their storyline that got them killed, and it would make a lot of holes in the development to have them suddenly "forget" whatever caused them to get murdered.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Havana

[Gall]

5 hours ago, Brett said:

This would perfectly fit in with my suggestion here. If PK's were oocly defined as the Attempted Murder standard from the OOC point of view, then ICly it can be rped as whatever. An example is like you said, someone does a driveby or something and they think they killed the player, but in reality they got rushed to the hospital alter or something. It can be rped as they wish, but from a story-standpoint on the OOC level for the PD/Player/Courts/Etc it has a consistent story. A simple defining of this as an OOC standard, would completely allow for the flexibility of how people deal with it from an IC point of view, and would help resolve so much unresolved questions in the IC so we no longer have this "Two different realities," and messy IG situations like the one you described above. 

But then again, if they were to be classed as "attempted murder", they would be alive in that scenario. In that case they'd remember what happened and be able to elaborate on what happened to the police, whether they had a bullet put in their head or not.

[Brett]

24 minutes ago, Havana said:

I feel like counting a PK as an "attempted murder" and letting the murdered party walk around with full knowledge of what happened, is a bit.. weird? Right now the vagueness behind a PK accommodates & allows people to work the details out. If people had the common decency to talk to each other after a PK to sort out what the character would forget, it wouldn't be so confusing.

 

A PK should be a PK. The victim is removed from the situation, and used as a nameless dead person in any further interactions or police/court matters, but the person can walk around on a "new life" as if they'd never known their murderer. Yes, there will be awkward run-ins, but it's still a "conditional" death in my opinion. Your character died because of a bad situation, bad luck, or to be removed from something, that wouldn't completely ruin that character.

 

And a CK is a CK, and a perma-death to the character, because something happened in their storyline that got them killed, and it would make a lot of holes in the development to have them suddenly "forget" whatever caused them to get murdered.

What the above said. Here is what's weird, and I'll try to TLDR. What's weird is you have two people one the victim who is PK'd and one the actual person who PK'd the victim walking away from a scene with two dramatically different stories that will be used in the IC. The person who got PK'd will basically have an entire part of his RP past the PK gone (As he would not have seen the effects, or lived it.) And the person who did the PK, will act as if he truly killed someone and suffer all punishments from it. This is contradictory. Because if PD were to say put a casefile up, they would have to name the victim. So if Jack Doe is the victim of a PK, Jack Doe's name appears in the casefile, and Jack Doe's actual information pertinent to a case will also appear in said casefile with affiliates gang or not, any miscellaneous information like a vehicle if it was stolen from them, etc. So all that RP is ongoing and currently being submitted into official character stories, and IG records, yet for the actual Jack Doe none of this is happening or has happened to them. That's weird, and makes 0 sense. How "exactly," am I supposed to RP a scene where let's say I get my car stolen and due to mistakes on my part I get PK'd, and my car gets officially stolen. To the thief who shot me and stole my car, that is registered in my name, to my person, he has just murdered me for my vehicle and has taken it. Am I to now RP that this so-called "robbery," never happened and my car is just a figment of my imagination that has never existed because if I try to follow up with a police report it could be PG/MG? This is what's not clear, and this "nameless dead person," stuff isn't solving anything. It's just adding to mountains of confusion which could be avoided by the simple defining of a CK being a full murder, PK being attempted murder, and people can ICly rp a PK as they thought they killed someone and maybe later found out that's not true or something. This has nothing to do with "ruining characters." Everything to do with the fact that we're putting tons of IC and OOC work from a Court/PD and even to an extent Illegal RPers who have to go through those systems on facts and information which only one side of the narrative acknowledges while the other is blissfully going about their day acting like the events we're describing is 100% myth. 

 

How exactly am I to have for example a murder trial on the server for the murder of my Jack Doe character and the theft of the vehicle, if Jack Doe still rply lives because it was a PK not a CK, and is actively going about his life trying to not entangle himself with a murder trial about HIS death from an OOC perspective because............I honestly can't even say it fully, because this is what I mean by it's so ridiculous as it stands that you have to do mental gymnastics to make the current system make sense. Just, I think you get what I'm trying to say here. And others have pointed to similar problems that leaves for an absolute game-breaking in my opinion immersion break, that cannot be resolved by a simple "Well leave it how it is, because it just works." No, it doesn't. 

 

23 minutes ago, Gall said:

But then again, if they were to be classed as "attempted murder", they would be alive in that scenario. In that case they'd remember what happened and be able to elaborate on what happened to the police, whether they had a bullet put in their head or not.

And that's fine. One party if they decide to ICly retaliate under proper conditions, can do so. And that still fits under the RP. The point being made earlier how I understand it, is if for example a party PK's someone that they could go on believing they killed someone only later to be proven to be wrong if the victim shows back up or whatever days later. It's all an IC problem, and people can deal with that transition ICly. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Brett

[Gall]

10 minutes ago, Brett said:

And that's fine. One party if they decide to ICly retaliate under proper conditions, can do so. And that still fits under the RP. The point being made earlier how I understand it, is if for example a party PK's someone that they could go on believing they killed someone only later to be proven to be wrong if the victim shows back up or whatever days later. It's all an IC problem, and people can deal with that transition ICly. 

And if the victim were to be shot in the head several times?

I believe people would take advantage of this and isn't going to end up too well. Say a victim was shot seven times in the torso, they'd take advantage of that and go "Hey, I wasn't shot in the head, they may believe I'm dead but I somehow got up and walked it off hehe."

And then the shooting scene in particular comes into play. It wouldn't be exactly fair if the victim did show back up days later claiming they haven't died if EMS hasn't showed up and conducted proper treatment. If that suggestion was to be implemented, anyone could just respawn after a PK and claim they're alive despite their severe injuries that leads to certain death.

 

On a side-note, this does cause further complications.

It would essentially create three realities:

1) The suspect's reality where they killed someone, a definite one such as a dozen shots into their body or one to their head.

2) The reality of the PKed victim who can't remember anything and goes on like nothing happened / The reality where they miraculously got up and survived a full clip to their body. 

3) The court/detective reality where the suspect is charged with attempted murder.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Gall

[Brett]

Just now, Gall said:

And if the victim were to be shot in the head several times?

I believe people would take advantage of this and isn't going to end up too well. Say a victim was shot seven times in the torso, they'd take advantage of that and go "Hey, I wasn't shot in the head, they may believe I'm dead but I somehow got up and walked it off hehe."

And then the shooting scene in particular comes into play. It wouldn't be exactly fair if the victim did show back up days later claiming they haven't died if EMS hasn't showed up and conducted proper treatment. If that suggestion was to be implemented, anyone could just respawn after a PK and claim they're alive despite their severe injuries that leads to certain death.

If someone is going to RP being shot in the head severely times, then honestly that should most likely be a previously authorized CK app if you're going to go into that level of detail. If you're just talking about shooting someone point and click in a standard shootout, then stuff gets rather ambiguous as people argue all the time about "Well I shot you here, and here, x." People are going to take advantage of this, same as people will take advantage without it. The sad reality is not everyone is going to take RP as seriously as we would like. I'm pretty sure not everyone treats traffic accidents as big deals, not everyone rp'd fear as accurately as they should, not everyone rp's small things that they probably should, it's never going to be a great standard. In the ideal RP world, if someone is shot in the head they should just CK themselves out of good sport, but most won't and whether this gets in or not isn't going to change that reality as that's a completely different discussion. People constantly claim random stuff about injuries, and walk away like it's nothing pretty much 24/7. Even if you weren't PK'd but were shot in the leg, shoulders, etc. Most people are just going to say "Eh, just a scratch bruh. I'll walk it off. Give BLS and I'll be gucci." 

 

Is this going to make shots fired situations or whatever fair, no. That's not the point. The point is simply to define officially from an OOC standpoint what PK and CK means in an RP. Not a discussion about if people should RP a PK this way, or that way. Because frankly, that's a different discussion. 

[Jidosko]

Then what happens when a clueless thug robs a mobster? IRL he would be dead if they find him. So that causes more CKs. If you're not allowed to kill him you're still straying away from reality. Would it be fair though to end a character like that? In contrast with the PK you "solve" your problem as well as you're not destroying a character development. It's just a quick example I thought. My point is its still a game. And too much realism will cause a lot of CK's cause that's how it is IRL. IMO too much realism will ruin the gameplay to some extent. 

 

I understand the confusion. But still, PK'ing meaning just attempted murder can spark a vicious cycle of PK's like a said before and that will lead to nowhere. Because if he remembers his attempt on life. He'll try to get revenge. Then I will do the same and so on. If we can agree on a middle ground like PK is attempted murder but the guy waking up has to stay for 30mins-2hours inside the hospital(depending on his injuries) with no memory of the face that killed him. (Not the events, he'll just won't be able to remember who.)That I can understand and agree and it will improve the RP for medics and give life to hospitals aswell as giving more ER roleplay with people visiting and there will be no retaliation. People will be able to remember to some extent. If they want to find the guy who tried to kill them, they will have to do some digging.Aswell detectives will have to work hard and try to find the suspect.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Jidosko

[Oakwood]

Force CKs on people who disregard their lives and die instead of jailing for non-fear RP

[Brett]

35 minutes ago, Jidosko said:

Then what happens when a clueless thug robs a mobster? IRL he would be dead if they find him. So that causes more CKs. If you're not allowed to kill him you're still straying away from reality. Would it be fair though to end a character like that? In contrast with the PK you "solve" your problem as well as you're not destroying a character development. It's just a quick example I thought. My point is its still a game. And too much realism will cause a lot of CK's cause that's how it is IRL. IMO too much realism will ruin the gameplay to some extent. 

 

I understand the confusion. But still, PK'ing meaning just attempted murder can spark a vicious cycle of PK's like a said before and that will lead to nowhere. Because if he remembers his attempt on life. He'll try to get revenge. Then I will do the same and so on. If we can agree on a middle ground like PK is attempted murder but the guy waking up has to stay for 30mins-2hours inside the hospital(depending on his injuries) with no memory of the face that killed him. (Not the events, he'll just won't be able to remember who.)That I can understand and agree and it will improve the RP for medics and give life to hospitals aswell as giving more ER roleplay with people visiting and there will be no retaliation. People will be able to remember to some extent. If they want to find the guy who tried to kill them, they will have to do some digging.Aswell detectives will have to work hard and try to find the suspect.

 

 

You're right, they would be dead (possibly). Or maybe the mob may go and "teach him a lesson," in another way that doesn't kill to show what they've done. Maybe that could be something for a CK application from the mobster if that happens. And I personally don't see any issue with a rise of CK's, as long as they're done properly. I don't agree that this is going to cause a problem in gameplay. If you're okay with simply just shooting people everytime you get robbed, or everytime you get "wronged," that's a personal issue and you should suffer the consequences. Hiding behind the "Well too much realism ruins the game," argument to justify poor RP is something I personally hate. I guarantee you more RP would be created, if everyone would stop the "Shoot first," attitude they have dealing with problems and try to resolve their issues in other manners like legit gangsters/mobsters do. All shooting someone does even in a PK when all it's being used for is PK's, is an excuse to just poorly RP events which could have far more depth. Because if you really want to truly murder someone, you would want a CK and people do actually work on requesting those, etc to make those happen so I just don't agree with your argument here.

 

And why do you assume everyone who has an attempt on their life is going to try and take yours? Some people who can be PK'd are cops, FD, legal roleplayers, etc and most will try and get you through legal ways such as reporting the crime to the police and getting you arrested and just acting as a victim. And even a lot of the people you're going to kill from a PK (If they're half a decent roleplayer), should find other ways to get revenge unless of course you truly kicked a hornets nest like killing a member of a gang or something and thus you get retaliation. My point is, this isn't going to be some vicious cycle and it's a complete myth that it will be. And if it worries you so much that people who get PK'd may try to get revenge on you, maybe that will stop people from trying to PK so many people to begin with so that doesn't happen? Either way, consequences are consequences. And trying to avoid them all in the name of "Too much realism, it's a game." Is just poor, and absolutely lazy in terms of roleplay development. 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Brett

[Jidosko]

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Brett said:

And trying to avoid them all in the name of "Too much realism, it's a game." Is just poor, and absolutely lazy in terms of roleplay development. 

 

 

No, it's not. It's a fact. Let us say they try to CK you when you're only one online. That fair? Or you won't be able to be online when ur friends aren't. Cause IRL a gang member is around other gang members most of the time. That can't happen IG.

[Brett]

@Jidosko - No IRL gang member is around other gang members even most of the time. They have lives too lol. And idk why you're bringing up legit circumstances of what can happen to someone who has a CK app or something on them. If someone manages to get the CK drop on you, when you're unprepared for something you did, that's consequences and you gotta live with them. You're not getting CK'd out here for stealing a car, or doing petty crime, or pretty much most things. Now I can't speak for the CK app criteria personally, but I imagine that it's pretty strict and thoroughly reviewed if a forced ck is to be carried out and that's fair. If you have an issue with that stuff, that is a different discussion for a different topic. My whole point here is to say, that defining the PK and CK as I have will give us a barebones standard of what OOCly these really translate too. Allowing people to base their RP and actions off of it without unnecessary confusion. Once that is defined, people can go argue about PK's and CK frequency and all that in another thread, another day. But at least a barebone standard of what they even mean, is defined.