Law & Order - GTA World Edition (Judiciary Faction Q&A Stuff)

[Copacetic]

Crime will be punished ICly. It's not an OOC punishment. I don't make anybody shoot up the block or rob the store. If you as an illegal character make the choice to commit a crime, you have to be willing to handle the consequences. 

 

The JSA is working on new ways to handle misdemeanor and non violent felony crimes and we think it'll be a success. Violent felony crimes will always take a little time for JSA to be able to handle. 

 

As for the argument being made by certain law enforcement officials about how they want people to commit crimes because it brings RP to the server, JSA has never stopped anybody from commiting crimes. People swore to God that the point system was going to destroy illegal RP, it hasn't. Hasn't even slowed it down. Shootings, cop killings, robbery's, hostage situations happen every day on this server. Crime isn't slowing down, it's speeding up. Part of commiting crimes is the consequences you can receive after you commit the crime. If consequences don't exist, real consequences, people might as well just go play on a DM server. 

 

JSA is making great strides to lower trial times and ensure that people still have a fair shot when it comes to defending themselves in our system. 

[Bospy]

Just now, Copacetic said:

As for the argument being made by certain law enforcement officials about how they want people to commit crimes because it brings RP to the server, JSA has never stopped anybody from commiting crimes. People swore to God that the point system was going to destroy illegal RP, it hasn't. Hasn't even slowed it down. Shootings, cop killings, robbery's, hostage situations happen every day on this server. Crime isn't slowing down, it's speeding up. Part of commiting crimes is the consequences you can receive after you commit the crime. If consequences don't exist, real consequences, people might as well just go play on a DM server. 

I don't want you to think I'm arguing against JSA at all, you guys have done an excellent job designing this system right now and I can't congratulate @Brettand you enough about how this has established an entirely new vein of roleplay unlike we've seen at any other server. It's got excellent design. I just don't want what we have to get any more strict. I'm no advocate for these consequences being decreased, I like where they're at right now.

[Copacetic]

Just now, Bospy said:

I don't want you to think I'm arguing against JSA at all, you guys have done an excellent job designing this system right now and I can't congratulate @Brettand you enough about how this has established an entirely new vein of roleplay unlike we've seen at any other server. It's got excellent design. I just don't want what we have to get any more strict. I'm no advocate for these consequences being decreased, I like where they're at right now.

We want to get more strict, but in the right areas. Murder should be no joke. Rape should be no joke. Trials for those issues will likely take some time and people will likely be in jail for a while. That being said, we don't want people waiting for weeks in trial for a dumbass possession charge. We have several new initiatives coming out this weekend that will completely refocus our justice system and I think the community will like it a lot. 

 

I won't spoil it here and now but, things will be better for everyone involved. I also appreciate your kind words. 

[liq]

34 minutes ago, Brett said:

This just sounds like a Heavy-Roleplay server mentality.

And we're not one?

 

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Okay, this is just silly. As I stated before even back on LSRP, people would suicide by cop just to avoid 1 hour in jail period. This has nothing to do with with the judicial system, it has to do with the mentality of some of these people in that they simply never want to spend a second of their time in punishment for the things that they do.

The fact that the my point flew past you is probably what generated this response. What I said is "a player would rather lie and not cooperate with good, quality police role-play and even choose to shoot and/or find their way out of a potential police investigation to take a PK than to rather deal with the judicial system." I don't mean any players. I mean experienced, worthwhile criminal role-players.

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Not trying to be rude, but this was honestly very ignorant and unless you want to back up what you have said by some facts it's just absolutely absurd.  

I watched an MS-13 faction shut itself down because I was part of the law enforcement group that arrested a member for double homicide, among other things. Cool role-play all around. It took the role-players deeply involved in that situation under 24 hours to get it all together. I developed a page of role-play screenshot alone by just being half involved.

It then took 7 days for the case to get prosecuted and another 5 for the player to learn they need to do a stint of 2-3 OOC months in county jail before they could role-play their character up for parole. All because they PKed two players who went back to their usual role-play in 20 minutes after the fact.

 

What I know for sure is that same player might not want to cooperate as much with me on an OOC level, even if it's fair, because they'll ultimately be dealt an unfair hand by the way the system functions.

 

—

 

Perhaps you and I have different doctrines but I don't feel that's fair to the criminal role-player involved, no matter what they did. You asked for a specific situation and I gave you one out of many I've witnessed. This topic is for you to get insight about what it feels like to deal with the judicial system from the outside. It doesn't matter how common required cases are (or not), it matters that the few times it happens, it results in situations like these. Perhaps you can look into how required court cases are dealt with not from a crime committed/sentencing perspective, but from a fairness perspective. I don't think someone should take that wrap for PKs is the bottom line for the situation at hand.

 

I'm not ignorant to what the judiciary system provides in terms of role-play on the grand scale. It's a one of a kind system and, commendably, one that works on a role-play server, which I've seen nothing of in my years of role-playing. I'm saying to me, from the cop perspective, it didn't provide much in this instance, and it hasn't been the easiest to navigate. I just don't find it fun and here's pages of this topic attesting to the same bottom line.

 

48 hour holds are another huge issue, in my opinion. Having been on both sides of the marble on those, I understand the purpose and the necessity. I still think having people tossed in 48 hour holds ad-hoc for whatever crime they commit is really not a good idea. I suggest this be considered only for felonies, for start, and see if that fixes the problem.

Edited August 12, 2020 by liq

[Brett]

Just now, liq said:

 

We are a Heavy Roleplay server, that's why I said it. The point you seemed to be going off of, was it being something lower then that as the problem you pointed out is not a problem really on a Heavy Roleplay server. Sorry if I didn't make that as clear as I would've liked. In response to this;

 

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a player would rather lie and not cooperate with good, quality police role-play and even choose to shoot and/or find their way out of a potential police investigation to take a PK than to rather deal with the judicial system.

No, I responded exactly to this. This has always existed on every server, and it's always been an indicator of a poor roleplayer. Lying to officers is one thing and that's not bad as that's just a thing we have to expect. But shooting your way out of every situation just because the police are coming, is dumb in a majority of the cases and a lot really could fall into the realm of deathmatching as there is no reason to go shooting a police officer just because you got 1 gram of Marijuana in your sock in Davis. I didn't skimp past anything, I responded directly to this. 

 

As for the last part of your post, I'll say this. I'm not familiar with that case you're referring to, but I can say that people aren't given 2-3months just on 1 PK. What happens is their entire criminal record is checked, to see if they have a history of commiting murder on people, and if they are like for example this is the third person they've killed they get like 2-3 months. There has never been a case where someone got something like that on 1 PK alone being on their record. Unless it was combined with other very extreme charges which I don't recall happening either. Maybe that is the reason for that situation, but I wasn't apart of it so I can't be 100% sure. As for the 48 Hour holds, that was reduced from 72 Hours to combat concerns raised from all sides of the argument. Nobody is ever happen with the detainment times, and it always leads to immense arguments. A lot of officers want it returned to 72 Hours, but criminals want it lower. This is just the compromise option, and it's the best we're going to get. It's never just going to be popular no matter what the time is in my experience. 

 

The reply to you came from the fact, that I know from experience and design of the whole system that a lot of what was being stated by you was instances that were misconceptions, or wrongful perceptions that some people have developed that I've been working to correct for the longest. This system is one of it's kind, and thus will get a lot of criticism from a simply lack of understanding and thus unless we work on clearing up those misconceptions they'll go into realms of things that are simply untrue and that is something I just won't allow. We can't make judgement on the rare occasions of bad things that do happen, as if every system we implemented not just with JSA but on the server was judged by that standard, everyone would be found guilty of something that happens on the rare occasion. We can only work for the majority, and for the majority the system works rather fine. Are there areas it can be improved, yes and improvements are always being made. But we can't please everyone. Fairness for Illegal Roleplayers and Legal Roleplayers will always be a topic of immense contention because they both inherently have different goals. What's fair for a illegal roleplayer may be unfair to a legal roleplayer and vice-versa. I mean, this topic alone which caused much stir is from the Business Roleplayers who believe they're being treated unfairly by the illegal roleplayers. 

 

The illegal roleplayers (not all but some) believe that is fair, while the business roleplayers believe it's not. Same dynamic happens on PD/SD threads when it comes to usage of firearms like AR-15's. Illegal Roleplayers believe they're unfair, while Legal Roleplayers believe they are. These groups will never 100% be in agreement, and you just have to work for the majority of all groups. Fairness in these games, means winning to the group who proclaims it. It's sad, but it's just the reality of what is really meant by a lot when they say they want things "Fair." 

[Copacetic]

Required cases are not going anywhere. If a criminal feels the need to CK others, rape, or other heinous acts they will enter our judicial system and they will remain in it until the judicial system has handled the matter. If people are not willing to handle the consequences of their actions, I suggest that they do not commit the crimes. A judicial system without teeth isn't a judicial system. We might as well, as I said before, be a DM server if there are no consequences for your actions. Furthermore I also find this argument to be slightly ridiculous beings how I have criminal role players in private chats with me and even on this thread that are asking for heavier consequences for their actions.

 

JSA will be reforming how we handle criminal matters on this server. If a criminal feels the need to change their name, rather than go through the criminal justice process, that would indicate to me a subpar level of role play and I'll not base the entire justice system off those types of situations. As I've said twice now we are working to ensure that misdemeanor and nonviolent felony crimes do not punish the player for entering and not guilty plea. We are working on ways to ensure the trial process is faster and more useful, and we're also working on ways to ensure that parole and probation are active alternatives for our system.

 

I will also go so far as to suggest that activity in the jail is also another reason why people feel disgruntled with the justice system. If I sentence you to serve a period of time in a place that is essentially inactive and provides very little role play to you, of course you would be agitated.

 

I have nothing but hope that the new initiatives being pushed forward in the coming days will be a success and will refocus our entire justice system on making things fair and balanced for everybody involved.

 

 @liq

[MomoIsHere]

L&A - Archived due to inactivity.