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Law & Order - GTA World Edition (Judiciary Faction Q&A Stuff)


Brett

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13 minutes ago, Crocker said:

It's really not.

 

USA's citizens fith amendment right, a stand-your-ground law, is a very serious and real thing. People die over trespassing on private property. Just because the consequences haven't been there before, doesn't mean that when they are roleplayed, there should be an outcry about it. It's realistic. People's characters who have been to the yacht without leasing it from @Thirteen rightlfully have received charges as such from the Police Department. 

That just shows the attitude that you have to the server. 

 

If people really get that emotional over virtual currency then it's no loss to the server if they leave. 

 

But the business hasn't been well advertised, so as I've said, some OOC interpretation must be made on the courts behalf if they believe the person clearly had no idea that they couldn't be there ICly - especially at a landmark like that golf course. Still, go through the court system - 100% agreed, they've trespassed. But 90k? Eeeesh. I'm amazed PM gave it to a player to be honest, I've never seen anyone have a business of that scale - and I like it, I like that it's being used and people can have access to it with role-play. The more things we have like that the better for all of us!

And you can't throw ,"my attitude to the server" around for saying I'd follow suit and CK my character if I was in a similar position, as my character could not afford that amount even with assets - just like in real-life, some pfoeople cannot afford to pay things, this is where my asking for clarification of what happens to someone who does not have the money or assets was important to me, a person that tries to play an average, "oh, $60 for a beer, I can't afford that". If someone decides that RPly they'd commit suicide due to the outcome of a situation, that's not having an attitude towards the server, that's role-playing an emotionally devastated person. Obviously others will do it out of spite but others will also do it out of a sense of playing their character story out that way.

Anyone leaving the server is a loss, regardless if they're upset over virtual currency or for feeling they were wrongly CKed. We're all humans, we all put different value on things and you can't categorize people as being unfit to play here because they disagree with a decision, even if they -did- make a mistake like Sten did. 

Edited by ashlyii
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1 minute ago, ashlyii said:

And you can't throw ,"my attitude to the server" around for saying I'd follow suit and CK my character if I was in a similar position, as my character could not afford that amount even with assets 

Clarification would've served well in this case. Sten's player clearly character killed over his attitude to the server as a whole, which can be evidenced in the report I made, following what came to light. If your character killed themselves over crippling debt, that'd be understandable, however debts get paid during probate regardless, so it is what it is.

 

We can agree to disagree on the other points. I won't derail the thread any further, if you'd like to discuss it further you can PM me. 

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I agree with Crocker here, the guy had 200k in cash a car that is worth 400k and a house worth 300k? The 90k shouldn't have been something that made him kill himself. That's just simply poor rp, no one in their right mind would kill themselves if their assets were worth almost a million for 90k fine. I also assume he could have settled for much less and if he hired a lawyer he probably could have walked away with much less.

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Crocker, 

 

The 5th amendment has nothing to do with stand your ground laws.  5th amendment is the right to not bear witness against oneself in court.

 

Stand your ground laws have to do with someone protecting themselves in the streets or out in the open.  If I was just walking and you started intimidating me badly, by law I have the right to defend myself.  These laws vary by state and California, which is most represented by San Andreas, is not a stand your ground state.  They have a castle doctrine in place, so if someone breaks into my home and I feel in danger, I can use deadly force.

 

Let's get real though, that golf course is basically unused and suing over a picture then saying Sten had poor rp?  It's amazing to see all the ways people justify theft.

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1 hour ago, ashlyii said:

But the business hasn't been well advertised, so as I've said, some OOC interpretation must be made on the courts behalf if they believe the person clearly had no idea that they couldn't be there ICly - especially at a landmark like that golf course. Still, go through the court system - 100% agreed, they've trespassed. But 90k? Eeeesh. I'm amazed PM gave it to a player to be honest, I've never seen anyone have a business of that scale - and I like it, I like that it's being used and people can have access to it with role-play. The more things we have like that the better for all of us!


Just want to address this point here, since I was the one that authorized the lease of this location for this specific concept.
A group came to me directly with a good plan for what they wanted to do with the property as well as a plan for how to roleplay out this concept on the server. They are paying a monthly fee (as with any lease) to continue using the property, and are required to adhere to the same rules as any other lease made available by Property Management.

 

In the past, I have also leased out the yacht (all though this is something I'm personally a bit more reluctant to do these days due to misuse etc) to other players to use for events and such, while suggesting that LSPD should arrest people using said "property" without obtaining the right permits, for trespassing. 

 

That being said, they are under no obligations to publicly advertise their existence (and I believe that doing so would even undermine the concept of being a private country club for the rich and successful), and it is fully up to them to decide how to operate (as long as they follow the server and/or property rules, specifically the ones related to leasing). If anything, them suing someone would only help fit the narrative that they are in fact roleplaying as "rich douchebags". 

And on that note, I think we've derailed this thread enough. Let's get back to what it was intentionally made for, instead of continuing to beat the dead horse that is this single court case.

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On 11/11/2019 at 12:25 PM, ashlyii said:

Ignoring the Sten De Visser thing, my question still remains what happens to those of us that simply don't role-play a lavish life-style? What processes are there in place in terms of payment structure if we ever find ourselves in a similar position? 

It should be the same as in real life. Ultimately if you can't pay the fine, you gotta do the time.

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I feel a little compelled to post because it seems that this thread’s scope doesn’t really extend past shitting on the golfing club & outcome of the civil case. Like Thirteen said, the golfing club is meant to be secluded because it’s for an exclusive group of people: the rich. Any country club is not necessarily about the recreational sports it offers—it’s more about the status symbol a membership to one encapsulates. That’s why it’s not really a matter of how often the golf course sees action. Sten’s actions are detrimental to the integrity of the roleplay had by the club’s members who have paid a membership fee.

 

Side note: if the country club wasn’t regulated by an IC entity, wouldn’t what he did be considered powergaming? Considering the fact that a golf club would not be a public space—especially one in a part of town populated by people from an upper socioeconomic standing—Sten would have no one to go through to buy a membership, a day pass, or even get an invitation. If members can be subjected to player reports over ”unrealistic” FaceBrowser posts (like that one about the construction site), then why is this case so hotly contested? 
 

In any case, from what I’m reading, Sten was rich. If he wanted his character to be a wealthy one who luxuriated in the use of such fancy private facilities, he should’ve either inquired beforehand about a membership to the club IC or OOC, or taken the membership offer given to him after the FB post was made.

 

Sten handled the entire situation very poorly, both IC and OOC. Any person being sued for $150,000 would not represent themselves in court. I think that move was an external projection of how the player portraying Sten felt about the case (and he made his feelings very clear with his actions following the outcome), and thus, subpar roleplay on his part. Why would he opt to represent himself? Does he have a background in law studies or is he otherwise well-versed with the law? If anyone sued me for any amount of money, I’d AT LEAST seek advice from a practicing attorney. He presented a poor defense. Someone who knew what they were doing could have mitigated the outcome’s severity
 

Rich entities, like golf clubs, have the means to bully people into submission through the court system beause they have the money for it. It happens IRL—why shouldn’t it happen IC? I’ve seen a thread here complaining about the lack of resources to roleplay a rich person, and yet here you are, raising hell when someone does what a rich person would do IRL. It’s not pretty. I think it calls for official inquiries to the courts system IC, staged protests against the golfing club, and officials ensuring that each case escalated to the courts is FAIR. To do so, I’d suggest:

 

- if an individual wants to represent themselves, the Judge should ascertain that they’re familiar with the law and have the capability to defend themselves against practicing lawyers

 

- court-appointed lawyers if an individual is unable to source a lawyer to defend themselves

 

- longer recess time for an individual to seek effective legal counsel should they choose to represent themselves

 

To conclude, I’d like to say that the outcome of the Sten vs. GWC case would have made for some interesting roleplay with the aforementioned protests, known members being harassed in public about it, etc... instead all we have is a big OOC witch-hunt and a messy situation that resulted in a player quitting the server. I’ve had excellent, engaging roleplay at the golf club and I 100% recommend players to try it out. The pretentiousness of it all is very immersive.

 

Anyway, I guess my questions would be:
 

Do you plan on implementing the use of juries in any capacity? Are there death penalty/life imprisonment trials? I think the latter would make for a great thread to read through (and a cool CK if the defendant is found guilty!)

Edited by Serendipity
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Hello Brett, does the DOJ have any type of clothing regulations to ensure people don't don your fire outfits while you're not looking?

 

On a serious note, as being one of the few with the absolute privilege to have worked closely with you since you got onto this project, I will state this. I have the absolute admiration for the way Brett carries himself, his faction members and holds them to the highest regard in any situation. I am glad that he put up this thread. I hope this gives you and your faction some well deserved attention.

 

That being said: How do you feel your faction has been working with the LSPD so far, and would you like to continue forward in a similar style with SD coming up, or are there certain things in our interactions that you would like to fine tune going forward in the future?

 

Also, what currently are your plans for expansion / further improvement of systems in and outside the DOJ that you can elaborate on right now?

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@Serendipity - To answer your questions;

 

1.) Players can represent themselves in a trial at any time, and it doesn't matter if they really know the law or not. If they want to take the case into their own hands and don't know what they're doing, that's on them. And will effect trial outcomes, just like it would be IRL. So the risk is truly on them to take, as it's impossible to ascertain knowledge of someone on the spot in a courtroom on law when we need to keep the trial processing.

 

2.) Court appointed lawyers do already exist, and we do assign them to people who request them. 

 

3.) We do give recess times if there are legitimate reasons, and they may be extended for legitimate reasons. And since we have an official Public Defenders office, I doubt these will be much of a problem when it comes to getting someone an attorney if they need one. 

 

4.) There will not be jury trials, as that would be too much of a pain. But we will be implementing life sentencing/capital punishments. It's something I've been planning for a while, but it's dependent on a lot of other factors that I'm working towards.

 

1 hour ago, Big_Smokes said:

Hello Brett, does the DOJ have any type of clothing regulations to ensure people don't don your fire outfits while you're not looking?

 

On a serious note, as being one of the few with the absolute privilege to have worked closely with you since you got onto this project, I will state this. I have the absolute admiration for the way Brett carries himself, his faction members and holds them to the highest regard in any situation. I am glad that he put up this thread. I hope this gives you and your faction some well deserved attention.

 

That being said: How do you feel your faction has been working with the LSPD so far, and would you like to continue forward in a similar style with SD coming up, or are there certain things in our interactions that you would like to fine tune going forward in the future?

 

Also, what currently are your plans for expansion / further improvement of systems in and outside the DOJ that you can elaborate on right now?

Hey, if anyone wants to snaz it up like us. I hope they're really packing a sense of style ;). 

 

And I appreciate what you said immensely, and will continue to carry this admiration into the future. As for your questions, I believe the cooperation has been really great. It started off a bit rocky (Mainly because I was new, and people didn't know what to expect.) But it really ironed itself out to build a rather strong foundation and I have no issues with that. The same styles I have done with the PD, I plan to keep with the SD and build across all gov/legal factions. I doubt much of my strategy will change here, and if it does I'll let everyone know. As for future improvements to the system, a few things on my list are as follows;

 

  • Officially reorganize the BAR Association, so that it's more self-sufficient and self-governing. With places to register complaints, code of ethics, etc. Along with instituting a tiered BAR system to separate types of attorneys.
  • Upgrade the Penal Code in terms of sentencing, with the introduction of new concepts, and refining of old. (Can't really go much more into detail here on that.)
  • Finish instituting the trial systems for all levels of the court from Superior, Appellate, and Supreme. To get even more formal in process and procedure as you go up.
  • Continue working with the LEO factions, to ensure we all remain on the same page in regards to our standards. And continue to build working relationships. 
  • Continue creating State Laws for things we need, in order to ensure there is a basis for a lot of things that happen IG. 

There's a lot of mini objectives in this, but these are some of the core right at the moment. After all that, I'm sure I'll add more. 

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