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Heavy RP, realism, suspension of disbelief and char depth


Topinambour

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Hello there o/

 

Another thread started deviating so maybe it's better to create a separate one. The main issues seemed to revolve, as often on GTAW, around the concepts of realism, which is why I wanted to bring those. It's... a lot of complex topics, so sorry for the length ? 

 

Realism, depth of RP and suspension of disbelief are very different concepts.

 

The 1:1 realism is often the one we see invoked as the end-all-be-all of RP, and a guarantee of quality. It revolves around creating an experience as close to the real world as possible, including (and especially) the more mundane parts.

The Depth of RP is another concept altogether - no character starts with an exceedingly deep RP. This is threaded over time, through meaningful interactions with other characters, creating links, stories, interesting challenges, and more. 

Suspension of disbelief is also a different aspect, most often seen in movies. It can change a lot based on the universe : seeing Superman fly won't make you go "LOL WTF THAT'S NOT LOGICAL!" because as a spectator, you agree than Superman can realistically fly. But if Jason Statham did the same in Fast & Furious 8, you would most likely wonder wtf's going on and question the producer's decisions ? 

 

Now, to start with Suspension of disbelief, it usually needs the creators of a given universe, and its spectators, to agree on a common set of rules. In the previous example: Superman can fly, but Deckard Shaw cannot. Most times, those rules aren't set completely in stone, to allow the story to move and evolve, and they're not exceedingly accurate either. Some things that would have been seen as unrealistic in a given movie could appear to be quite fine in the 4th volume of the same series. E.g.: seeing a helicarrier in Iron Man 1 would have seemed quite excessive. In Avengers though, it's amazing, but we can easily accept it. 

 

Maintaining that suspension of disbelief isn't that simple, as different publics have different sensibilities. Some are very accepting and will be just fine with people flying in Fast & Furious, they're a minority - and creating a universe based on those peoples' vision is risky, at best ? You also have the opposite end of the scale, with people who will argue that even if on Krypton the gravity blablabla then Superman can't fly and Superman is shit because it's illogical. Again, tailoring your universe to them specifically is doable but will end up in a very niche experience. 

 

But for most people, it's a fluid concept - as mentioned in the example of the helicarrier in the MCU movies. Things that don't exist IRL can be accepted if they're "kinda" respecting the established lore, and bring something interesting to the scenario - be it in a movie, series, theater, or in RP. Another example, if I'm a Dungeon Master on a Conan Exiles RP server, and I bring a Helicarrier, it will be a problem. But if I bring a necromancer, it can be accepted : EVEN IF THAT SPECIFIC NECROMANCER DOES NOT EXIST IN ROBERT E. HOWARD'S ORIGINAL WORKS. The necromancer I created does NOT exist "IRL" or in Conan's version of IRL (the original novellas), but within the universe of Conan, a necromancer is perfectly credible.

 

Now, when it comes to realism... There are many things, on the server, that are deemed unrealistic, even though they would definitely not break that suspension of disbelief for a majority of people. And even though they could perfectly exist IRL. They are deemed so, most often because they don't exist IRL. A good example was the gang of Rastafari who went rogue and decided to smite the servants of Babylon. Is it a carbon-copy of an existing RL gang? Maybe not. Is it believable in the scope of Los Santos? It seems it is. There were issues regarding female gang leaders. Is it common IRL? No. Does it make it impossible to believe such a gang could exist, in Los Santos? It doesn't.

 

Some things that don't exist in a 1:1 realism frame can actually be perfectly believable, AND bring interesting novelty and depth to a story. Which leads us to character depth. Many seem to confuse "acting like it's real life at all times" with "character depth". The idea of character depth was developed a long time ago, long before RP was a thing in fact, and there are often key ideas to achieve it. I'll quote Kirsten Koster, who's not my favorite author, but who defined 7 ideas very well - ideas you find across a lot of modern storywriting in novels, movies, and RP.

 

People who want to read them will, but among those we have: "Your character has a job or a hobby? Go deeper". Unlike what some believe, a job isn't the end-all-be-all of quality RP, and in fact limiting a character to that will make for a rather shallow experience. We also have "Don't settle for making average characters who do ordinary things". What's meant here is that if you spend your whole book (or RP) describing your char waking up, going to take a dump, eating, going to work, and heading home, little to no meaningful char development will be achieved. 

 

A deep character isn't one /me'ing that they serve drinks several hours a day before logging off. It's a character with quirks, defining personality traits that you remember, specific opinions shaped by their experience, a behavior that changes based on what they go through in RP, and a part that's hard to understand for others. There are many hyperrealistic characters that got created on the server. Their common point is that nobody remembers them after a few months. While some others that could be seen as "less realistic" (like Svetlana "Egorka") are easily remembered AND recognized.

 

So, how does one serve character depth? Well, jobs can be a part of it, I'm not against those, don't get me wrong. My own char's working at a gun range, in part because it's a good occasion for her to practice her aiming after having lost an eye and not trained in a long time. It creates an opportunity for progression along with the customers, some of whom even gave her tips, ideas, with whom she remained in touch. It was an opportunity for development. But just being a cashier wouldn't have been, and I would definitely have gone "lol no". Once more, because there are key questions to ask oneself:

 

- Does this create at least mildly fun opportunities for everyone involved? If at least one person wish they were doing something else, there might be a problem. Unlike what some may believe, other characters are NOT NPCs whose only role is to be props for your own RP. Every player's time is precious, respect it. 

- Can this create an interesting link, or story in the future? RP is a collaborative experience, and the most interesting parts aren't /me'ing jobs but really developing links and stories with other characters - be it simple things such as friendships or more adrenaline-filled things such as illegal stuff or gang investigations.

- Does this completely break any reasonable suspension of disbelief? If there is no fucking way in hell my char would ever do that, there might be an issue. But if it's even mildly possible, then why not? Create good RP, experiment, have fun. 

 

Those three central elements are what constitute what is called "Heavy RP" among most communities. Just paying a fine or filling your taxes, or /Me'ing going to the toilet is not heavy RP - in litterature it's actually considered flat and shallow*. The so-called "Heavy" RP is what goes beyond those surface elements, in the complex and compelling development of stories, links, between unique characters with specific motives and personalities.

 

Now... F.A.Q.:

 

- So you think anyone should be able to do ANYTHING? YOU WANT RP TO BE SHIT AND LIGHT!!??!§???!?§?L§?F4JFPMO2J2MPJ32 *seizure*

Not really, I did mention suspension of disbelief, didn't I? ? Something like a dude being crushed by a Sandking XL but surviving and running off would be enough to break that. Similarly, someone /Me'ing that aliens are landing would have the same effect. Same goes for a 5'4 kid lifting a wrestler and throwing him away. There is a big difference between having a fluid suspension of disbelief (asking oneself: "could this be credible within the bounds of that universe?") and accepting anything. Most stuff that happens in the GTA V campaign would break said suspension of disbelief, for me (unless the admins decided it's good, of course - then I'd be ok with it).

 

- What if I want to just have that sort of RP where I go to a job and go to sleep??? You want to prevent me!

Not at all, feel free. I'm pretty sure I can speak in everyone's name when I say nobody will stop you. The real issue is when you start presenting your own niche interest as a "quality standard" for the entire server, though. 

 

- Should there not be police then?? Because most people don't enjoy RP'ing with them!

Well, it's mostly because most times, they appear not as a scenaristic tool that affects and changes the course of the action, but as a nuisance interrupting the RP altogether. Being pulled over for an imaginary infraction, while you were heading to RP somewhere, usually leads to a few /mes of a policeman checking your ID and giving you a fine, and you having lost 15 minutes. Quality RP stemming from that is exceedingly rare. Their intervention interrupted the RP you were heading towards, and their enjoyment was obtained at the detriment of everyone else involved - because the players were treated as props or NPCs for their own fun.

However, in a situation where illegal RP is involved (murder, drugs, etc.), then the police are an INTEGRAL and ESSENTIAL part of the story! It would in fact be very interesting if they had more tools to locate and oppose illegal activity ? #LessTrafficCopsMoreDetectives 

More day-to-day interaction could also be interesting. I was RP'ing with... I can't remember her name from the LSPD earlier and it was really interesting. Gave insight on who she is and added to the RP, instead of preventing RP from happening. 

 

- AH so you want only fun stuff to happen!!!

Well... Yes? It's a game, unlike what some may believe ^^ If I wanted to do mundane stuff like working a 3x8 shift or filling tax forms, or receiving fines... I'd just do it IRL. For those things to be a small background part of the game is fine, but when they become a looming problem that discourages RP, however, it's another whole issue entirely. And also unlike what they may believe, an RP experience can be excessively deep and detailed, AND fun. It doesn't have to be annoying and tedious ? 

A good example would be on tabletop. If your Dungeons & Dragons DM told you the dungeon is 6 days from where you are, you'll reply "ok, we're starting to walk then!". And if he asks you to describe every step and actually spend 6 RL days Rp'ing the trip, you will most likely kindly ask him to go screw himself ^^ Unless the trip brought some actual value to the RP & stories, there would be no point in playing it in its entirety.

 

 

 

*There have been exceptions, but they're exactly that: exceptions. The author had a specific intent behind describing those mundane activities, and did so with a specific style that served the story. A good example is the elaborate description of Bishop Myriel's life in Les Misérables (and even that one is often seen as too excessively elaborate and boring, for many).

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This is literally a spin off of a post about PD towing peoples cars if they park illegally. For those reading I urge you to read that series of posts (Starting with my suggestion about illegal parking) 

 

 

This isn't even about realism, this is about consequences. See every choice has a consequence, some big and some small. If your friend calls you and tells you to come meet them across town and you drive above the speed limit to get there quicker, you might get pulled over and you might get a ticket! But guess what, you didn't have to get a ticket but you chose to break the law.

 

If you don't want to get towed. Don't park illegally.

 

But there seems to be an even bigger issue your having, You only wanna RP the things You want to RP. If a police officer stops you, its a nuisance and a hamper to your RP but when you start the RP with the cop then its alright. Huh. Roleplay and specifically Roleplay servers are not about your story, its about the collective story of the servers universe. 

 

There is a story already at play here, its not your characters story, its our story as a server. You were just plopped down into it. Its a story/universe with a legal system, Government, Police force, massive organized crime syndicates, Drug Traffickers, gang banger's and bikers, Prostitution rings, Clubs, bars and businesses. Millionaire business Tycoons and homeless drug addicts. Every party of society is represented to some degree and we all interact as those same parties would in real life. Because everyone agrees to RP as close to real life as possible it creates a unique scenario where you can try things in a fictional universe and get reactions that replicate their real world counterparts. No one is trying to stop your roleplay, they are just giving you a realistic reactions to your actions.

 

Also I'm not presenting my "niche interest" as the servers standard of RP, its IC law and therefor apart of the servers standard of RP:

 

 

 

Edited by Henning
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Yeah this guys smart, we should listen to him more often.

 

Now following on I think FM should take a little read of this and think about de-restricting those faction creation rules or just straight up opening the faction threads to all to create and those that are well-written and develop into something meaningful to the server will get that sweet "official" status and the benefits factions get at the moment, where's "unofficial" factions will just have that thread what they can continue to update over time to show the development/story of their faction if they want (purely optional to show screens etc), this will allow a larger array and variation to factions on the server, rather than being streamlined into the ones already available to us. If the faction team don't want yours due to it being too similar to one already on the server, or it not being based off something from real life- even if it is in that believable area for our LS.

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Personally I completely agree, but it's sad to say that these exact reasons are why I, and many others I know, no longer play.

 

The idea that "100% realism" is the best way to go by armchair wannabe game devs here, without considering the FUN aspect of playing a game, has really left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

That in conjunction with this hatred of scripting anything whatsoever, but that's already been posted about to hell and back and nothing has changed, so I honestly kinda doubt this thread will change anything also.

 

The biggest problem re: your post is staff. And this isn't a personal callout for individual staff members, but rather a callout of the entire purpose of certain divisions of staff. When you have individuals who police every aspect of character/faction creation to conform to what they think is realistic, there's gonna be lots of problems.

 

I'm not gonna put a ton of effort into this post, as historically the points in this thread have been brought up over and over again and nothing has changed, but here are two personal examples.

 

1. Yakuza (lol)

 

At this point I don't even want to play Yakuza anymore, but regardless: Yakuza in Los Santos. Realistic? Maybe, maybe not. Following Los Santos's intent to be LA on an island, and considering there is known Yakuza activity on LA, I don't see why not. As for Yakuza activity size? Literally nobody knows, except the Yakuza, and probably the government agencies that track them (which is nobody on staff, btw). However, it's big enough for the U.S. Treasure to list them as a transnational criminal organization with activity in the US alone listed as drug trafficking and money laundering.

 

Now, we were told by staff that, even WITH information from the US government itself, the Yakuza were not active at all in the US because their personal preconceptions regarding the Yakuza was that they were stupid and didn't belong on the server.

 

So, we can clearly see here that the problem with having "fun" characters or factions doesn't necessarily stem from the playerbase, although I'm sure that there are players who feel the same, but rather from staff members.

 

Now, that's not to say the staff members are to blame here. Rather, the roles given to them, that is, to police characters and factions to be as "realistic" as possible is what has created this problem since they as staff should follow the roles and regulations handed to them to uphold.

 

I have other examples, which include one staff member's personal dislike and at the time rejection of a faction (Jewish faction, claimed the Jews he knew IRL which were Russian, didn't act like the Jews we were roleplaying, which were NY Jews). However, the server's view on immersion and realism, and their ability (or lack thereof) to mesh, is really hurting it in terms of potential players.

 

The funniest part is that if it's to hurt players and prevent them from having fun, the server has no problems with being completely unrealistic (road tax, hint hint, it doesn't exist in the US). 

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2 minutes ago, EliH said:

Lengthy quote.

I'm not going to systematically fight every single point you're trying to make in this, but I am going to say this.
A lot of the things you mention in your rant shows that you are very outdated when it comes to your perceived knowledge of ingame mechanics and rules.

So I would simply suggest that you log back on, check how things are now and then make another comment again.

 

Example;
(hint hint road tax isn't a thing on the server anymore).

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57 minutes ago, KFN said:

Hint hint that road tax was basically the only thing you said wrong.

 

I'm going to respectfully disagree on that one. For example, a lot of the points mentioned in @EliH's post revolved around decisions made by staff members that are no longer a part of the staff team. 

I'm not going to throw anyone under the bus, but I do feel that as a result of that, some of their concerns were a bit unwarranted when it comes to how things are being done right now.

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